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-   -   KotOR III: Completely New Everything? (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=185515)

The Source 01-20-2008 06:49 PM

KotOR III: Completely New Everything?
 
KotOR III: Completely New Everything?
If you think about the longevity of the "Knights of the Old Republic" series, would you want a completely new idea? Otherwords, the next "KotOR" would leave behind the story of Revan and Exile, and bring you a very new direction and story. Since it would be boring to hear about the same old - same old, how about a "KotOR" with a fresh perspetive and direction. New villans? New threats? New everything? Something with an upbeat experience.

Ctrl Alt Del 01-20-2008 07:21 PM

I think they (LucasArts) got a compromise with the people that played the previous game of finishing the story they (Obsidian) left purposely unfinished. After that, they can do whatever they want, and a new story might not be bad.

Hawkstrong16 01-20-2008 07:27 PM

As much as I would like a new story..............I do really want to hear what happens to Revan, the Exile can die for all I care because I didn't like Kotor II.

But a New story would be good for a IVth Kotor.

adamqd 01-21-2008 05:19 AM

People cant get "Trilogy" out of there heads, because everything Star Wars seems to come in 3's. I don't care if its KotOR III, or KotOR - A new beginning, as long as I get to play in that Era again, I love everything about the TOTJ, GAOTS, Mando' wars, Sith wars, new Sith wars etc, besides it's been 4 years since TSL and with next gen and the advancements in Game technology, it's not really gonna resemble the first two anyway.

Gargoyle King 01-21-2008 07:06 AM

I think it will be a trilogy, of course it just an opinion. ;)
However the thought of going deeper into SW lore with the likes of Marka Ragnos, Ulic Qel-Droma, Exar Kun etc. does seem really tempting; and are perhaps characters that would benefit from being fleshed out a bit in a game of this calibre.

Miltiades 01-21-2008 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del
I think they (LucasArts) got a compromise with the people that played the previous game of finishing the story they (Obsidian) left purposely unfinished. After that, they can do whatever they want, and a new story might not be bad.

Agreed. Should Kotor3 be made, it should finish the story. A Kotor4 could start a whole new one, then. As long as it's in the same Era. Like adamqd, I like the Sith Wars and Mandalorian Wars etc.

Steve-O Kreesh 01-21-2008 08:53 AM

I would like to see the next Kotor finish the current story. Save the new story and characters for a 4th game.

Rev7 01-21-2008 09:41 PM

I think that a new story would be great. One condition though, there is something in the game that talks/tells you about what really happened to Revan. Other than that I think that it would be a very refreshing experiance to have all new characters, vehicles, planets, and storyline. But that is just me...

Ctrl Alt Del 01-22-2008 06:13 PM

I hope to see how known party members and other old secondary characters looks on another engine. It could be interesting.

southern_fox 01-24-2008 11:37 PM

At absolute minimum, the game engine would need to be completely replaced and improved. Although I feel that much more would need to be done.

I'll take an absolutely hard-line position with that issue. The engine's rendering and functional abilities would need to be far wider than what they were with the Odyssey engine. Its dated compared with other engines in the mainstream today.

I don't know for sure (and I could be wrong), but wasn't that engine made 2000-2001? For the time, it was a breakthrough in interactive world building, but its fallen well behind. Even at the release of the Sith Lords, it felt a bit old.

I'll give credit where its due: Obsidian integrated in certain improvements, among them being weather simulation and functional capes/cloaks. But these were mere band-aids when a transplant is needed. Weather should be functional, changing, and flowing at will - never stagnant unless for a good reason. Worlds should have day and night cycles, probably much different from each other. I'm using Oblivion as a model here, but even in that game there is always room for improvement (one thing that Bioware has up on Oblivion to this day is intricate dialogue trees)

NCPs should have active schedules and "jobs", in other words, they are scripted to live and act like people. They go to work, go home regularly, they interact and have relationships with other NCPs, they sometimes visit a friend's house or somewhere else, so on. In the dated game model, NCPs in a city walk around rather aimlessly in a rough pattern, and when talked to speak a sentence that is meant to stand for a conversation. Its always daytime, and the same NCPs can be relied upon to be aimlessly walking in the same rough patterns. To me, thats pretty weak.

After playing Oblivion and experiencing such a massive and detailed world rendered beautifully (I'll admit though, I'm playing on the highest settings, and I have plenty of mods), the whole concept of a "planet" being expressed with a mere seven or so modules/rooms is dead to me. Its old.

KOTOR was great, but any intended successor would need to be highly competitive in terms of interactivity, graphics, and storyline (and that last one is not much of a problem).

When comparing ... say .... Onderon from the Sith Lords, to the Imperial City of Oblivion, the Imperial City wins hands down in every possible category of rendering and interactivity (Onderon's architecture as shown always seemed a bit blocky to me; obvious reskins and touch-ups to Tatooine architecture models from the first game).

Zerimar Nyliram 01-24-2008 11:52 PM

I've become kind of attached to the first two games' engine. It kind of adds to their charm at this point for me. It also really creates a sense of unity between them, especially as far as modding and skinning go. I love being able to download new Mandalorian skins, for example, and be able to use the textures in both games for the sake of continuity.

As much as a new game engine would certainly be a good thing, I feel that it would shatter that feeling should the next installment continue the stories of Revan and the Exile. If, however, once the Revan trilogy is completed and they wish to continue in this era with more KOTOR games, exploring entirely different story lines, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing a new engine being integrated into a later installment. But not KOTOR III, if it's continuing where the story left off. We need that sense of unity between the games of the same story, and that includes the aesthetics.

Then again, there is a drastic difference in the game engines between Dark Forces, Jedi Knight and Jedi Outcast, but it's different when each installment is of a different era with different graphics. (Not including the spin-off titles, Mysteries of the Sith and Jedi Academy here, just the games of the main story following Kyle Katarn.) It's perfectly fine when each new installment comes to us with a new game engine like that, but when two or more installments share the same engine, as the first two KOTOR games have done, introducing a new engine distracts from the feeling of continuity.

southern_fox 01-25-2008 03:09 AM

Quote:

I've become kind of attached to the first two games' engine. It kind of adds to their charm at this point for me. It also really creates a sense of unity between them, especially as far as modding and skinning go. I love being able to download new Mandalorian skins, for example, and be able to use the textures in both games for the sake of continuity.

As much as a new game engine would certainly be a good thing, I feel that it would shatter that feeling should the next installment continue the stories of Revan and the Exile. If, however, once the Revan trilogy is completed and they wish to continue in this era with more KOTOR games, exploring entirely different story lines, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing a new engine being integrated into a later installment. But not KOTOR III, if it's continuing where the story left off. We need that sense of unity between the games of the same story, and that includes the aesthetics.

Then again, there is a drastic difference in the game engines between Dark Forces, Jedi Knight and Jedi Outcast, but it's different when each installment is of a different era with different graphics. (Not including the spin-off titles, Mysteries of the Sith and Jedi Academy here, just the games of the main story following Kyle Katarn.) It's perfectly fine when each new installment comes to us with a new game engine like that, but when two or more installments share the same engine, as the first two KOTOR games have done, introducing a new engine distracts from the feeling of continuity.
Well, I understand where you are coming from. Playing within the same gaming engine across multiple games does create a sense of being in a continuous series. I had the same opinion not too long ago.

... but ....

I also feel that holding onto an aging engine that has been long since outpaced and outperformed is regressive at best. Its not farsighted, and would appeal largely only to the more insulated fans of the series. I mean really, the Odyssey pales in the face of several games I've been playing recently. Comparing the Odyssey engine with my experience in Oblivion, I can immediately tell the strongly favorable improvements in the game's character mobility, realistic rendering, graphical beauty, environment interaction, environment scope, and even facial detail. Its all much more fluid and real. Heck, you can swim and stay deep underwater. Even the nastiest and dirtiest dungeons look really interesting and beautiful in their own special way. Exploring is genuinely fun.

Compare that to the blocky architecture of Onderon, and the boxed-in feeling of the modules. Even the first time I played the Sith Lords, it felt stale.

Having a new graphical engine with improved rendering and more fluidly mobile movement of limbs does not mean that characters cannot look like their original appearance - in fact, they could look far better and more real than when you first met them. All that would be needed is to be faithful to previous renditions when modeling the character.

Holding onto an engine that is ... well ... outdated, and pretty much in every measurable way obsolete, is hardly a way to make a game feel fresh and up to date. Say such a game were to be released 2010-11; what would its competition be? The engine would be pushing its age to a decade.

If a third game were to be a mediocre sequel for the sake of having a sequel - with no freshness, no uniqueness, no strong "wow" feeling I had playing the first game, being a dead-on rehash of the previous game, aimed only towards more hardcore fans who would want "Knights of the Old Republic 3: The Sith Lords 2", and not aimed towards a larger audience, not being a standout classic game based on its own merits, and not pushing the envelope the way the first game did, then I would not bother with such a game.

It would be weak by my standards (and gaming standards today), and certainly not worth the $59.00.

With no disrespect, I'm not strongly concerned about not being able to use the same robe or armor texture between different games. If a new game would have a better engine, it would logically have better looking robes and armor anyway. That engine would give life to its own mods. The Odyssey engine has not exactly been the most "modification productive" product either. Exactly how many new animations have been created since the engine debuted in 2003? New locations? (Just one, recently, and due to incredible skill). The powers that be - whomever they may be - have obviously succeeded over the years in largely stagnating possible benchmarks in creating complex assets for the game, by being nonsupporting and lukewarmly hostile to modding games with the Odyssey (in other words, I'm not saying anything negative about the community). Contrast that by looking at the hundreds upon hundreds of highly detailed and complex Oblivion mods that have sprung up since the game was released. A large number are entirely new areas, new races, new castles, new caves, improved terrains, altered local economies, new weather patterns, new animations, new furniture, so on. Just since 2006. There is even a project that I have my eye on that is creating from scratch the different provinces of Tamriel to add to the game, which is akin to creating new planets for KOTOR, but exponentially larger with more detail and free-roaming. Their modding community has released more assets and modifications, if added up together, than the sum of what came in the original product (a great deal because of so much official support). Long story short, I'm not afraid about a new engine being a bad thing for modding.

One way or another though, what we say here does not matter much. I'm confident though that its highly unlikely that Bioware, or any other gaming company would pick up the Odyssey engine at this point. It seems counter-intuitive from a business angle to use outdated software to create what could be a high-profile game.

JinSarigit 01-26-2008 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Source
KotOR III: Completely New Everything?
If you think about the longevity of the "Knights of the Old Republic" series, would you want a completely new idea? Otherwords, the next "KotOR" would leave behind the story of Revan and Exile, and bring you a very new direction and story. Since it would be boring to hear about the same old - same old, how about a "KotOR" with a fresh perspetive and direction. New villans? New threats? New everything? Something with an upbeat experience.

Sure okay, but then the developers would obviously need to explain some things (mainly Revan & the suppsoed "true sith") and make it work well with I & II, elsewise its really not a "true" sequel

kotorfan84 01-26-2008 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamqd
People cant get "Trilogy" out of there heads, because everything Star Wars seems to come in 3's. I don't care if its KotOR III, or KotOR - A new beginning, as long as I get to play in that Era again, I love everything about the TOTJ, GAOTS, Mando' wars, Sith wars, new Sith wars etc, besides it's been 4 years since TSL and with next gen and the advancements in Game technology, it's not really gonna resemble the first two anyway.

Yeah I agree. I'd be open to a Knights of the New Republic that takes place thousands of years after Luke and his nieces, nephews and children are dead. Or if they gave us another period after the events of KOTOR II. The games are great and I really hope I can play another one soon

DarthVandar205 01-26-2008 11:19 PM

I think they need to finish the story of KOTOR 1 and 2 and this time they need to take as much time as necessary and COMPLETE the game and find some closure for this whole "Revan" thing. Then if they make another game they can follow a completely new story. Its not fair to leave fans hanging like this.

Bomberman65 01-27-2008 07:41 PM

I'd like them to use the ME engine that would be kool. I just want them to set it after KotOR 2 I don't care if they have a new story or not, I just want some more KotOR goodness.

Arcesious 01-27-2008 08:46 PM

sorry to spoil the fun but, have you ever considered this:

the more ideas we come up with for a KOTOR3, we ruin it more and more for ourselve sif it ever comes out... obviously lucasarts does pay attention to their official forums and probably gets a few ideas from fans, and with all these ideas, we coudl end up gettign everything we want in the game, but the thing is, it won't be new to us. for example:

if there was a Kotor 0, we'd all go crazy wantign a Kotor 1. some fan woudl coem up with the whole revan 'amnesia thing', and when fans go and reahc the poitn where revan has the Revelation experience that he is actually revan, it wouldn't be as exciting... and that may end up beign what happens if Lucasarts listens to their fans and does just that... just as we are doing with all the ideas and fans stories of Kotor 3...

Now... People- just accept that Lucasarts will not be makign KOTOR 3. Look into other games and sci-fi sagas, and stop beign addicted to this forum... do soemthing new for once in your lives.

however...

LUCASARTS IF YOU READ THIS POST LET ME LET YOU KNOW THAT I STILL THINK A KOTOR 3 WOULD BE TOTALLY AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

southern_fox 01-27-2008 10:44 PM

Quote:

sorry to spoil the fun but, have you ever considered this:

the more ideas we come up with for a KOTOR3, we ruin it more and more for ourselve sif it ever comes out... obviously lucasarts does pay attention to their official forums and probably gets a few ideas from fans, and with all these ideas, we coudl end up gettign everything we want in the game, but the thing is, it won't be new to us. for example:

LUCASARTS IF YOU READ THIS POST LET ME LET YOU KNOW THAT I STILL THINK A KOTOR 3 WOULD BE TOTALLY AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If I understand you correctly, thats not really how publishers work.

Lucasarts rarely designs the actual game. There are some cases of in-house games made, but its rare. Typically, Lucasarts gives a license to an independent studio to design a title. They may play a role in giving loose guidelines, suggestions, requirements, benchmarks, and certain restrictions. These depend on the game, the deal struck, and sometimes the muscle that the studio has. Examples of studios include Bioware, Obsidian, Pandemic, and so on.

And I can't really think of any studio that uses online forums to cull stories from. Some ignore forums outright. Most have developers participate, but politely and silently ignore them as a source of ideas. Bioware's guys have said as much. Largely because studios have their own full-time writers, artists, designers that do that job, and fishing for ideas in forums is a big no-no. They might (depending on the developer) take comments to heart about certain things, and might fish for feedback/opinions, but I don't know of any cases of developers plundering forums for ideas.

Thats why I rarely participate in certain types of threads (and I won't name which types). With no disrespect to others, its often a waste of time. I learned that in the Galaxies forums before that game came out, when I first started using the internet. That place was a firestorm, and a good model for a lot of the insanity on many forums. People argue fiercely and publish their ideas as if they have a chance of being implemented, or argue over doctrines or "canon" of fantasy material, or some other nonsense.

Its pretty tame here though, and there are nice moderators.

Da_Man_2423 01-30-2008 10:19 PM

A lot of people have some truly amazing ideas for gameplay elements...although often times they thought of something that would interest THEM in the game, not the entire community, which is tough to come up with.


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