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Sam! 01-31-2008 07:01 AM

Darth Vader - Getting Old?
 
Now you've got to agree with me that the 'big' lighsaber duel between Darth Vader and Obi-Wan in episode four is a little...slow. I mean, sure they're getting old, but it's not like they have arthritis!

The way Darth Vader fought in episode four, I'm suprised that he managed to fight Luke in episode six. Seriously, Darth Vader should've hobbled in with a walking stick and poke Luke with it, if he can manage to do that even.

What are your thoughts on Darth Vader's ageing?

JoeDoe 2.0 01-31-2008 08:42 AM

Well, it was the acting mostly, and the guy has been burned all over his body and lost all his limbs, maybe that had something to do with it, don't you think?

adamqd 01-31-2008 12:19 PM

Post mustafar Vader is sustained by the Force and his armor, Physically he is as decrepit as a corpse anyway, as long as he had the force and his armor his age was irrelevant.
The real reason the fight in SW:IV was slow is because George and his choreographer's hadn't decided on doing acrobatic moves with stunt men yet, The in universe reason is probably because of Obi-Wans age and his dictation of pace using Soresu (IMO)

Rev7 01-31-2008 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamqd
Post mustafar Vader is sustained by the Force and his armor, Physically he is as decrepit as a corpse anyway, as long as he had the force and his armor his age was irrelevant.
The real reason the fight in SW:IV was slow is because George and his choreographer's hadn't decided on doing acrobatic moves with stunt men yet, The in universe reason is probably because of Obi-Wans age and his dictation of pace using Soresu (IMO)

I totally agree. This was really the first time that they actually had a lightsaber act. Yeah I know that there was one in ANH, but that was lousy. They certainly did a much better job with the lightsaber fighting in ESB, but it isn't something that we are used to. The fights got better as the saga progressed. :)

urluckyday 02-02-2008 02:54 AM

I don't think that it had anything to do w/ age...I think it had to do w/ the fact that they hadn't really had too many lightsaber fights for a long time...besides...it you're looking at it in film-making aspects, it was just a difficult scene to begin w/...simply b/c they def. couldn't have made the fight any faster and get it to work well w/ the special effects department...but in the case of the story, I think it would be seen as just lack of previous lightsaber fights...

YertyL 02-02-2008 07:11 PM

Oh man, I'm getting tired of the whole "the choreography isn't great so Vader sucks" argument :/
You should consider that Vader would at least be as powerful as anyone in the Empire (which would basically be more or less the known SW galaxy) besides the Emperor himself and his own son - otherwise he would not have stayed Palpatine's apprentice for a long time.
Also, the whole "cybernetic replacements make a person stiff" doesn't seem to fit too well with "My metal limbs have made me a jedi killer" Grievous.

adamqd 02-03-2008 08:06 AM

^^^^

Actually, my Argument is: "Vader Rules, BUT the Choreography WAS Crap in EPIV", not what you said, so we're actually in agreement :)

PoiuyWired 02-03-2008 11:07 AM

^^ Agreed. Plus, its kinda hard to really fight well in that costume.

DeathKnight23 02-04-2008 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoiuyWired
^^ Agreed. Plus, its kinda hard to really fight well in that costume.

I'm amazed he could fight at all in that suit, give him some credit, he was hardly gonna be able to do back flips in it :xp:

Ztalker 02-19-2008 10:29 AM

In Universe explaination:
Quote:

In his mechanical life-support suit, it was extremely difficult to engage in the energetic acrobatics of Ataru, an act that would quickly tire him, defeating the purpose of the acrobatic style. For the remainder of his life, Vader maintained his mastery of Form V, but introduced more elements of Soresu and Ataru swordplay into his customized style, as witnessed by Jedi Master Roan Shryne when Bol Chatak dueled with the Dark Lord. It was noted that he would often employ powerful yet sometimes clumsy and stiffly executed vertical strikes to wear an opponent down, which he utilized both against Bol Chatak and Luke Skywalker.

He apparently learned his lesson from his duel with Kenobi, learning how to control his emotions when in combat and finding a way to call upon calculated bursts of the dark side while not being blinded by emotions running amok.
It's just a physical style. Limitations (bulkyness and slow) combined with the suits and Anakin's strenght (physical powers and mass). :)
I also recall it's based on the real-world 'Kendo' form?

PoiuyWired 02-20-2008 11:35 AM

Hopefully not.

Kendo is nothign but a cultural game of people hitting each other with a stick at best, and nothing close to any fighting form. Its just a spot based on the most simple moves of the old Kenjutsu moves, with lots and lots of rule restrictions that limits attackable positions. Just know the difference of Kendo and any koryu practical katas/moves. (For those who are interested a more understandable style to start with would be things like Toyamaryu, since its one of the mroe modern forms developend from/for WWII where guns and tanks roam the battlefield)

On the good side, since Kendo have little regards (there is still the "back" of the blade and some rule against striking with obvious sides) of the blade/edge angle of a sword, it would actually work to the advantage of the lightsaber, where its blades cuts 360 angles.

Personally I think that a "functional" lightsaber form would be quite different from the existing RL blade forms, and more akin to fighting with really dangerous sticks, minus most of the blocking/parrying moves due to the untouchable nature of the blade, but the whole REALISTIC FUNCTIONAL LIGHTSABER FORM discussing can be a topic in itself, which I would type up once i have the time.

Sir Phobos 02-23-2008 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obi-wanrules
Now you've got to agree with me that the 'big' lighsaber duel between Darth Vader and Obi-Wan in episode four is a little...slow. I mean, sure they're getting old, but it's not like they have arthritis!

Vader's cumbersome fighting style probably has more to do with 1970's technology/choreography than his in-story age.

Doc Valentine 03-11-2008 11:30 PM

I agree that age may have played a roll in this as far as explaining it in the Star Wars Universe. However, you also have to take in account that Lucas, when making Episode IV, did not intend for there to be any sequels. He probably didn't want to focus so much on the saber dueling, which ironically has become one of the most loved features of the Star Wars saga.

Scars Unseen 03-29-2008 09:15 AM

Lucas may not have believed he would be able to make a sequel at the time, but it can hardly be said that, at least on some level, he didn't have plans for one. I don't imagine there are too many intentional one-offs that have the main villain survive the conflict and just wander off with no explaination.

Personally, I'm not that fond of the acrobatic lightsaber combat either. Too much flash, not enough drama. Something in between would be nice. Maybe one part TPM, two parts RotJ, with just a dash of "I am your father."

Jake Hutt 04-08-2008 06:41 PM

It's definitely hard to reconcile the disparity between the high-flying, acrobatic lightsaber fights of Eps.1-3 and the more "down-to-Earth" fighting in Eps.4-6. The same argument could be (and is often) made about R2's seeminlgy limitless abilities in 1-3, compared to 4-6.

The truth is, the new trilogy was designed to "wow" a 21st century audience, regardless of congruity or logic.

adamqd 04-09-2008 10:12 AM

The in-universe explanation is that; EP 4-6 Jedi are Cyborgs, old men and untrained boys, the R2 abilities (I read somewhere) are due to him being stripped of unessential equipment during his servitude to Antillies. But as Jake hutt said, it's for a new audiance.

Ztalker 04-10-2008 07:12 AM

I just wanted to start a thread about this :)

I watched TESB yesterday, with all the prequel movies (and ANH from past week) in mind. And it rocked.
As some here have already said, Darth Vader simply can't do acrobatic moves. He uses raw power. Although it doesn't show in his Obi-Wan duel, it does in the duel with Luke.
I just observed, and Luke got served pretty hard. At the first strikes Darth Vader disarms him. It's just that Luke jumps in time, because Vader already leaps (jumps) in on the disarmed boy! Luke is then bashed into the carbon freezer which he only escapes by luck (jumping into the cables at the ceiling which Vader can't reach).
At this point, Luke is already tired, haird al sweaty, bruised eye sockets, almost limping. Vader then just toys around with him...the scene with the window and bridge, etc. You can also clearly see he only uses one hand to fight in the duel, not even using his full power.

With Episode 3 in mind, It wasn't that bad! Vader really looked lik the strong and powerfull Anakin, although in a much different way. :D

But alas, the episode 6 duel...isn't that nice...and neither is the episode 4 duel.

Henz 04-10-2008 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztalker
I just wanted to start a thread about this :)

I watched TESB yesterday, with all the prequel movies (and ANH from past week) in mind. And it rocked.
As some here have already said, Darth Vader simply can't do acrobatic moves. He uses raw power. Although it doesn't show in his Obi-Wan duel, it does in the duel with Luke.
I just observed, and Luke got served pretty hard. At the first strikes Darth Vader disarms him. It's just that Luke jumps in time, because Vader already leaps (jumps) in on the disarmed boy! Luke is then bashed into the carbon freezer which he only escapes by luck (jumping into the cables at the ceiling which Vader can't reach).
At this point, Luke is already tired, haird al sweaty, bruised eye sockets, almost limping. Vader then just toys around with him...the scene with the window and bridge, etc. You can also clearly see he only uses one hand to fight in the duel, not even using his full power.

With Episode 3 in mind, It wasn't that bad! Vader really looked lik the strong and powerfull Anakin, although in a much different way. :D

But alas, the episode 6 duel...isn't that nice...and neither is the episode 4 duel.


I agree with that. Episode 5 stands up pretty well with the new films I think, which 4 and 6 fails at in my opinion.

adamqd 04-10-2008 03:01 PM

I agree with you Ztalker, although I think ROTJ was not as good because they consciously changed Luke's style to a more broadsword style which wasn't as fluid as TESB, also the rotoscoping of the Lightsaber blades were too bright and inconsistent in ROTJ (A point I think should of been corrected in the re-do's)


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