LucasForums

LucasForums (http://www.lucasforums.com/index.php)
-   Telos Tourist Bureau (http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=575)
-   -   The alignment system - Good/Evil and Law/Chaos? (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=188187)

RedHawke 04-22-2008 01:38 AM

Mod note: Conversation split from this modding thread, since it evolved in a direction that has little to do with the original modding question. :) ~M


Actually IMHO the D&D alignment system is not really applicable to the Star Wars universe... Star Wars is not about Order (Law) or Chaos, it is purely about Good and Evil.

JCarter426 04-22-2008 01:57 AM

Well, I'd disagree. K2 isn't about good and evil at all. I'm not 100% familiar with the system, but wouldn't characters like Canderous and G0-T0 be "lawful evil", while HK would be "chaotic evil", Kreia "chaotic neutral (or, dare I say, good)"?

Robespierre 04-22-2008 02:07 AM

That's why I thought the definition of Canderous as "evil' was a bit...arbitrary. As HK-47 says "While Mandalore is effective at killing, he seems to derive little sport from it" - he doesn't kill for the fun of it, like HK.

I would say that Kreia is chaotic neutral. Though for most of the game she is "true neutral", since her true motives remain hidden.

Could you say that Visas was almost chaotic good? Or just neutral evil?

RedHawke 04-22-2008 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCarter426
Well, I'd disagree. K2 isn't about good and evil at all.

I strongly suggest you play the game again then... it is all about Good and Evil. :eyeraise:

The fact is that George Lucas himself has stated that Star Wars is all about good and evil, as that is what the whole story was based upon, stories of brave heros and imposing villans. K1 and K2 are no different, while K2 is more subtle it is still good vs evil.

JCarter426 04-22-2008 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHawke
I strongly suggest you play the game again then... it is all about Good and Evil. :eyeraise:

I am playing the game again. I'm always replaying the game. :p

And it's not about good and evil; it's about choosing a side. "Isn't that the same thing?" No. :p

Robespierre 04-22-2008 04:06 AM

Quote:

And it's not about good and evil; it's about choosing a side. "Isn't that the same thing?" No.
Well it is about good and evil, but its also about the reasons why. The characters in KotOR aren't evil just because they are all anarchists and they aren't all good because they believe in doing "the right thing". I mean look at Kreia - people would argue that she's "evil" even though her intentions weren't just in the goal of total anarchy. But then again HK-47 is evil because he likes being evil. He even says that being nice is repulsive to him.

JCarter426 04-22-2008 04:17 AM

Eh...I wouldn't say it's "about" good and evil...sure, there are good people and there are evil people, but it's not about good and evil in the sense that the Star Wars movies are about good vs evil.

RedHawke 04-23-2008 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCarter426
I am playing the game again. I'm always replaying the game. :p

And it's not about good and evil; it's about choosing a side. "Isn't that the same thing?" No. :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCarter426
Eh...I wouldn't say it's "about" good and evil...sure, there are good people and there are evil people, but it's not about good and evil in the sense that the Star Wars movies are about good vs evil.

Sorry but you are really missing something then...

Star Wars... all Star Wars is about struggles between good and evil, stammer all you want to the contrary, that is a fact.

Edit: I have it on pretty good authority that the alignment system from D&D was not even on the table for the D20 PnP Star Wars system, because of the universes black and white storylines, and GL's own statements. It is good and evil.

JCarter426 04-23-2008 01:30 AM

Say what you will, but K2 wasn't about that at all. There was no fight between good and evil. It was about the Exile reconciling with the past, with her decision to defy the Council and fight the Mandalorians.

RedHawke 04-23-2008 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCarter426
Say what you will, but K2 wasn't about that at all. There was no fight between good and evil. It was about the Exile reconciling with the past, with her decision to defy the Council and fight the Mandalorians.

It was about Good and Evil and how the Exile's/Revan's decisions actually served one side over the other.

Unless you can provide hard proof to the contrary you are simply spitting in the wind.

jonathan7 04-23-2008 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHawke
It was about Good and Evil and how the Exile's/Revan's decisions actually served one side over the other.

Unless you can provide hard proof to the contrary you are simply spitting in the wind.

TSL is my favourite SW game as it is alot 'greyer' than pretty much all other SW games, however it is still about Good v Evil; ultimatly despite the game being grey, given you can't get a prestige class unless your either good or bad it would seem it is still about Good v Evil.

While this new alignment system is interesting I think RH is correct in that evil is still evil; if you decide to shoot someone for sheer fun of it, or if you shot them so you could achieve the power you crave, still seems to me to just be evil.

Eagle Racer 04-23-2008 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHawke
It was about Good and Evil and how the Exile's/Revan's decisions actually served one side over the other.

Unless you can provide hard proof to the contrary you are simply spitting in the wind.

Um.... I would say the entire conversation with G0T0 on his ship deals with order and chaos. G0T0 isn't interested in the good versus evil battle, he's out to preserve order in the galaxy. He offers you 2000 credits for every system you help stabilize on your journey. This may be more of an aside, but it's still present. To me TSL always stands out among Star Wars story lines, because there is more to it than good versus evil. You have the ever present risk of chaos running in the background. There isn't another stupid, huge cookie cutter war going on as the backdrop. It's a galaxy on the verge of self-destruction. And at the center of it all, you have potentially the most unique force wielder of them all.

Then there is the fact that in both games you can be good and disagree with the views of the Jedi. Just saying these games are about good vs. evil seems to belittle it somewhat. But then again, this game has plenty of the cookie cutter characters from the Star Wars Galaxy. Jedi council behaves exactly the same way as the council in the movies, making all the same blunders and suffering from all the same character flaws. Kriea plays a similar role to the exile to what Palpatine was to Anakin. But in the end you carve your own path and can be independent of both the Jedi and the Sith. Hell, you can tell the council there dead wrong about everything and earn lightside points...

On a side note, I find you last comment could have been put better/nicer given that you are a moderator here.

Salzella 04-23-2008 03:06 PM

Legacy of the Force series isn't black and white. Perhaps not a brilliant precedent, but i would certainly say Jacen Solo qualifies as 'Lawful Evil', Ben Skywalker as 'Chaotic Good'. Plus, no matter what the universe actually is, for those who wish it was otherwise, it would be an excellent way to have a deeper playthrough and characterisation?

i was going to add something else, but i can't remember what it was. humph.

RedHawke 04-25-2008 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle Racer
Um.... I would say the entire conversation with G0T0 on his ship deals with order and chaos. G0T0 isn't interested in the good versus evil battle, he's out to preserve order in the galaxy.

True but G0-T0 is the exception, he isn't the main part of the story, stopping Nihilus is.

Even if the PC is acting out of their own evil intentions, good still triumphs because Nihilus the destroyer of worlds, the unending hunger is dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle Racer
Just saying these games are about good vs. evil seems to belittle it somewhat.

Can't help that as George Lucas himself has stated this multiple times... The KotOR series being "Star Wars" has to follow suit, and does quite well.

Notice the lightside endings are listed as the "canonical' endings for K1 and TSL, this is because of this fact. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle Racer
On a side note, I find you last comment could have been put better/nicer given that you are a moderator here.

Really? There is nothing un-kind or wrong with what I said. In a debate you are allowed to ask for proof from the other debater when they make claims.

TKA-001 04-25-2008 09:19 AM

Quote:

Can't help that as George Lucas himself has stated this multiple times... The KotOR series being "Star Wars" has to follow suit, and does quite well.
Why are random statements by George Lucas taken as fact by so many people?

JCarter426 04-25-2008 09:27 AM

Not to mention that he had nothing to do with either game.

jonathan7 04-25-2008 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001
Why are random statements by George Lucas taken as fact by so many people?

Because its G-canon... Don't make me bring out Jae's infamous 6 degree's of canon....

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...t=levels+canon

Gurges-Ahter 04-25-2008 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001
Why are random statements by George Lucas taken as fact by so many people?

I agree that Lucas had nothing/little to nothing to do with the game, but many accept what he says as fact because he, as the creator, is the ultimate decider of what is canon and what isn't. He probably knows less of the EU than many that use this board though, so it's hard for many to easily accept his word as fact.

So, for the most part, I agree that we can't use Lucas as a validator of an argument for issues regarding KotOR; although his opinion should be considered in some cases, perhaps such as this one where the nature of the game, which is part of the EU, is in question.

Inyri 04-25-2008 10:22 AM

Why are we upset that George said the games are about good and evil? It's true -- they are. However they're not only about good and evil. It's a rare thing that can only be interpreted in one way. :)

jonathan7 04-25-2008 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inyri
Why are we upset that George said the games are about good and evil? It's true -- they are. However they're not only about good and evil. It's a rare thing that can only be interpreted in one way. :)

Silence infidel - the sacred texts can only be interpretated one way! ;) :D

Salzella 04-25-2008 01:24 PM

Lucas Schmucas.

that's the most in-depth comment you're going to get out of me i'm afraid :xp:

Eagle Racer 04-25-2008 09:39 PM

Hum, bringing up Jacen is a good point... Everything he does is driven by is desperate desire to overt chaos and total war. At least as first... And he does good things and bad things to achieve this goal along the way. Seeing as he's the main character of the current story line in the books...

Lucas also said in an interview, something about poetry and versus rhyming... Anakin blowing up the droid control ship in Episode One was symbolic of Luke blowing up the Death Star. So if we take Lucas's words as fact, then we are doomed to see the same story over and over again with new faces and places if we are lucky.

RedHawke 04-26-2008 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001
Why are random statements by George Lucas taken as fact by so many people?

Because they are... perhaps you ought to read up on the state of things before you joust with people. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCarter426
Not to mention that he had nothing to do with either game.

(See below) But your point(s) are irrelevant, sorry mate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter
I agree that Lucas had nothing/little to nothing to do with the game, but many accept what he says as fact because he, as the creator, is the ultimate decider of what is canon and what isn't. He probably knows less of the EU than many that use this board though, so it's hard for many to easily accept his word as fact.

Unfortunately for this argument something called Lucas Licencing proves this wrong, he does indeed have final "control" of what is allowed to be made/produced with the Star Wars name. Sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter
So, for the most part, I agree that we can't use Lucas as a validator of an argument for issues regarding KotOR; although his opinion should be considered in some cases, perhaps such as this one where the nature of the game, which is part of the EU, is in question.

This would hold water except as stated above.

Basically this is like trying to argue what is Trek with Rodenberry, or what is Babylon 5 with Straczynski.

JCarter426 04-26-2008 02:31 AM

Er...what exactly did he have to do with making either game? Did he write the script, or did he do some skinning and modeling?

Inyri 04-26-2008 02:34 AM

He owns Star Wars. 'Nuff said. :)

So as RedHawke suggested, your point is irrelevant.

RedHawke 04-26-2008 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCarter426
Er...what exactly did he have to do with making either game? Did he write the script, or did he do some skinning and modeling?

Re-read my post I added why this is so... ;)

JCarter426 04-26-2008 02:51 AM

So? Gene Rodenberry may have created Star Trek, but that doesn't mean that every single episode of every series shared his original vision. The same applies for any series in which the creator hands the work over to others, including Star Wars.

Inyri 04-26-2008 02:54 AM

Yes, but if Gene Roddenberry decided he wanted to make a claim about that episode that didn't follow his original vision, it would be true because he created Star Trek.

JCarter426 04-26-2008 03:12 AM

That still doesn't mean that the games have to be about good vs evil just because they take place in the Star Wars universe--in fact, they don't even take place in George Lucas' universe, as he considers the EU to be completely separate from the movies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHawke
True but G0-T0 is the exception, he isn't the main part of the story, stopping Nihilus is.

Then why doesn't the game end when the player kills Nihilus?

Quote:

Notice the lightside endings are listed as the "canonical' endings for K1 and TSL, this is because of this fact. ;)
Not true; K2 doesn't have a canonical ending yet. And even if the ending is happy, that doesn't mean the story was about good vs evil.

Rogue Nine 04-26-2008 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCarter426
That still doesn't mean that the games have to be about good vs evil just because they take place in the Star Wars universe--in fact, they don't even take place in George Lucas' universe, as he considers the EU to be completely separate from the movies.

They can't be completely separate, as they still take place within Star Wars. It's not something George Lucas conceived himself, but it's still playing within the universe he created, albeit even longer ago than the Prequel and Original Trilogies.

The beautiful thing about the games is that we can each interpret it in our own ways. Some can see the whole good vs evil thing quite clearly, while others are not sure it's so cut and dried like that, especially with a game like the Sith Lords, where alignment isn't so obvious.

luckyariot 04-26-2008 06:56 AM

Well... I agree that this does come down to good vs. evil. But TSL goes about it realistically. Nothing is truely pure good or evil (look at the actions of both the Jedi and the Sith, especially concerning the Exile and Revan, and neither are really something you want to admire), and in the end, the judgements made upon the characters' morality are based on your own interpretation. I like that, because the first game only touched over this slightly, and it makes situations seem more real and in-depth (if only they had finished... :()

However, no reason you can't apply the Chaos/Law theory, as long as you keep-in-mind that, like the good and evil labels, there are variables. Examples...

HK: Chaos-Evil, don't get me wrong; this is quite obvious. But remember that HK was made to be a killer, so it seems likely he was programmed this way, or even developed that rationale to funtion properly, like humans do. And, although he definitely enjoyed this job, it is notable how he views his kills as art, saying it is about "finesse, function" and "not body-count". Also note that, as a droid, he has little free will and cannot be truely held accountable for the acts he committed, as long as his master had given the orders, or his programming interpretted it that way.

Quote:

We were created as a way of enforcing a certain galactic view of our masters, of imposing our masters' will upon the galaxy, through extermination of other organics. It is not our choice who we kill and it was not our choice to determine if we could sacrifice ourselves in the persuit of our mission.
Interesting self-analysis, no?

Canderous: Between Law and Chaos/Neutral, this is much more difficult to judge, given how Canderous developed during the game, but my guess is that this is how he would stand at the end of the second game. It is clear that Canderous is not a blood-thirsty person, but as a Mandalorian, battles are his life. As a military commander, he had to make nessisary sacrifices and attack unarmed worlds, culture and strategy demanding it. But he also respected his opponents (like Revan and the Exile), and didn't hold grudges like the 'lighter' characters.

Quote:

I've killed many people. I can't say I'm proud of it, but I have. Criminals, competitors, businessmen, police… women, children…
Canderous is tough to judge because he is pretty down-to-earth, realistic. He isn't sentimental or blood-thirsty, but he does what he needs to do, for himself and his people. Overall, I would say he makes choices that many real people would make.

Anyone able to judge Visas? She's difficult, and it was only when I faced Nihilus that I was sure she was on the Exile's side.

RedHawke 04-28-2008 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCarter426
That still doesn't mean that the games have to be about good vs evil just because they take place in the Star Wars universe--in fact, they don't even take place in George Lucas' universe, as he considers the EU to be completely separate from the movies.

I have already answered you on this, simply regurgitating the same argument over and over doesn't change the facts.

While the EU may be completely seperate, it still has to follow the guidelines he sets forth and Lucas Licencing enforces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCarter426
Then why doesn't the game end when the player kills Nihilus?

Actually, the game is called The Sith Lords (Note the S at the end), Nihilus' destruction is paramount for the galaxies survival. But, Kreia and her pawn Sion also need to be delt with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCarter426
Not true; K2 doesn't have a canonical ending yet. And even if the ending is happy, that doesn't mean the story was about good vs evil.

Unfortunately you show your ignorance here... both games have 'canonical endings' for KotOR I Male Lightsided Revan and TSL is Female Lightsided Exile. This is a fact.

JCarter426 04-28-2008 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHawke
Unfortunately you show your ignorance here... both games have 'canonical endings' for KotOR I Male Lightsided Revan and TSL is Female Lightsided Exile. This is a fact.

"No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity." --Leland Chee, here

Shem 04-28-2008 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001
Why are random statements by George Lucas taken as fact by so many people?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I hope you realize that anything said about Star Wars by Lucas is fact based on the fact that he created it, he controls it. His will is law when it comes to Star Wars. He's the king, the dictator, the emperor, etc, when it comes to the Star Wars universe. Anything he says is law according when it comes to Star Wars. Anybody who argues what Lucas says has lost the argument as soon as the argument presented left their mouth.

TKA-001 04-28-2008 09:30 AM

I guess that means the Invisible Hand is a Star Destroyer.

adamqd 04-28-2008 11:47 AM

I know what your sayin TKA :)

George IS the be all and end all of Star Wars, but if he turns round and says that the invisible hand is a Star Destroyer then so be it, but two weeks later an official guide to ships comes out and it states that the invisible hand is in fact a Providence-class carrier/destroyer, then it is, because, by his own word he has given Lucas Licensing Dominion over the EU, (That includes Film related novels, incredible cross sections etc) therefore by having the official Logo it has been passed by Lucas, whether or not he'll bring something out to ret-conn that fact is his prerogative :) so yes, he is the ultimate Master, but it's not that cut n' dry.

Regarding K2, I think K2 isn't really about Good and Evil, but that's because it's a bit self indulgent and strays from Star Wars/its predecessor.

Da_man 04-29-2008 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCarter426
That still doesn't mean that the games have to be about good vs evil just because they take place in the Star Wars universe--in fact, they don't even take place in George Lucas' universe, as he considers the EU to be completely separate from the movies.

Who says it has to be either good or evil, it iss completely possible to be neutral, though you will inevitably be somewhat light- or dark-sided. ANd for the Chaos/law thing, they have to exist in balance, or the whole system collapses. In terms of the government, too much law and order, the people under you rebel. Too much Chaos, and nothing goes right, and again people rebel. Notice how both end the same. It's like Malcolm's Chaos Theory in Jurassic Park, there is a point where everthing is in balance, and everywhere else, it is utter destruction.

SilentScope001 04-29-2008 01:20 AM

Guys, Star Wars is about Good/Evil. Therefore, so is TSL.

Problem is, however, is that it gets inverted. Good is Evil. Evil is Good. The evil guys like Kreia and Revan (both DS) gains more support than the good guys represented by the Jedi Council and Atris (all of whom were LS). It's not at all 'realistic', would you really bow down to Saddam Hussien if you realize he was oppressing his own nation and expanding the Iraq empire in order to protect the Earth from an invasion by aliens? It's just a twisted version.

luckyariot 04-29-2008 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentScope001
It's not at all 'realistic', would you really bow down to Saddam Hussien if you realize he was oppressing his own nation and expanding the Iraq empire in order to protect the Earth from an invasion by aliens? It's just a twisted version.

...Actually it is realistic, since by your logic, there is only one point of view and Saddam Hussien's supporters all are evil and know it (or idoits/crazy). That is simply not true. Many good people think that causes like Hussien's are good ones. You will be hard-pressed to find many people who seriously think they are working for an evil cause and are alright with that, even the greedy ones have a problem with it.

Yes, Star Wars is about good vs. evil, but what that means is objective. There are different points of view and nothing is set in stone. Many people thought Revan was going the right way when he attacked the Republic, just look at Atton's dialouge and you'll see he didn't consider the Sith evil at first. The troops thought of the Jedi and the Council as evil, and not without reason.

Look at Atris! I wouldn't qualify her as good: manipulative and holding grudges, even before her fall... And I was horrified at what the Jedi tried to do to the Exile at the end of TSL, not to mention using Revan as a mind-slave...(don't care if I'm LS, that is something to be upset about) The Jedi Covenant is a pretty good example too-they aren't nessisarily evil (as a group) but they were pretty scary...

Oh, and many people would bow down to a despot and adopt their ideas, if they thought he/she might win. The Nazis. Austria. Hungary. Poland. Half of France. World War II. Look it up.

TKA-001 04-29-2008 10:07 AM

Quote:

Look at Atris! I wouldn't qualify her as good: manipulative and holding grudges, even before her fall...
Before? When?

Quote:

And I was horrified at what the Jedi tried to do to the Exile at the end of TSL
Seems perfectly logical to me, since the Exile is the one responsible for setting off the MSG, causing this wound in the force stuff to hit the fan, killing hundreds across the planets of the game, and of course drawing the Council and the Sith to the same spot, which led to their certain deaths. What the hell were they supposed to do? Seems to me that their mistake was in not neutralizing the Exile sooner.

Quote:

not to mention using Revan as a mind-slave...(don't care if I'm LS, that is something to be upset about)
Again, what course of action would have been better? You're just being biased due to the fact that the player is Revan.

Quote:

The Jedi Covenant is a pretty good example too-they aren't nessisarily evil (as a group) but they were pretty scary...
Actually, they were evil, considering the fact that the Padawan Massacre at Taris somewhat damages their record, not to mention the severe tempers its members demonstrated. To say that they were Jedi at all is on the same level of rot as claiming that the Dark Jedi of the Hundred Year Darkness (circa 7,003 BBY) or (more recently) the Exile were Jedi, simply because they thought they were doing the right thing.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:11 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.