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Ctrl Alt Del 05-24-2008 12:30 PM

Choking as Darkside
 
There are things we all take for granted. I've always took Force choke (or Force Kill, for the close) as one of those things.

"What, Vader's trademark? For sure it's Darkside!"

So naive. Recently re-watching RotJ, I noticed something that I've never bothered with before. Luke actually chokes the Gamorreans guarding Jabba's palace at the entrance, killing or stunning them.

How many games do classify Kill as a DS powers? And still Luke uses it. Last I checked, only Yoda taught him, I wouldn't think he would teach a dark power to him.

adamqd 05-24-2008 01:20 PM

At the time (In real life, not Star Wars Continuity) there weren't things like Darkside/lightside powers yet, more like just telekinesis, apart from Palpatine's Lightning, but that was just his thing... until AOTC :roleyess:, I think Games the EU and later the Prequels established the rights and wrongs of Force use (I don't think Luke Killed the Gam's though) :)

Rev7 05-24-2008 03:50 PM

I am pretty sure that Luke didn't kill that Gammorean, but he still used some type of force power that stunned the Gammorean.

Fredi 05-24-2008 04:22 PM

The force has no allingment ... so you could use what is known as Dark side powers ... aslong as you can control you're emotions ...

Rev7 05-24-2008 10:06 PM

^
To me it looked like Luke was controlling his emotions when he used the force choke.

HIGH ON PIE 14 05-24-2008 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Padawan (Post 2467526)
The force has no allingment ... so you could use what is known as Dark side powers ... aslong as you can control you're emotions ...

Thats what I've always thought... there are'nt any true dark or lightside powers, just ones that draw more naturally on one side's practices. Anyway I'm also pretty sure Luke didn't kill the Gammorean although it did look like he was choking it. But in martial arts moves today isnt it possible to stun someone by cutting off most, but not all air? IDK maybe I've just been watching too much TV.

Gurges-Ahter 05-25-2008 12:04 AM

Additionally, Luke skirted the edge of darkside/lightside in battling his emotions... I kind of visioned him like Mace Windu in that he was definitely lightside, but was close enough to gray to be able to effectively utilize what are commonly known as darkside powers. I also believe that's why Mace was so effective with Vaapad.

Ctrl Alt Del 05-25-2008 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamqd
At the time (In real life, not Star Wars Continuity) there weren't things like Darkside/lightside powers yet, more like just telekinesis, apart from Palpatine's Lightning, but that was just his thing...

I find myself agreeing with this. It was probably retconed.
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Padawan (Post 2467526)
The force has no allingment ... so you could use what is known as Dark side powers ... aslong as you can control you're emotions ...

Well, the Force surely don't, after all, Dark and Light are living beings conceptions. But the way you use is as a mean to accomplish a goal, but still inflict pain (I think that being choked or electrocuted is painful), would classify some powers as dark or light. Such as it's seem on many games.

Ali1392 05-25-2008 04:52 PM

look up potentium or something spelt like that on wookiepedia that explains it

GeneralPloKoon 05-25-2008 05:29 PM

The New Jedi Order was much different than the Old Jedi Order(before Order 66), the Jedi where more aggresive and there was less rules, marriage was even allowed!(Luke and Mara Jade) Plus those Gamorreans were probably scum anyways.... eventually though, the new jedi get it together.

adamqd 05-25-2008 05:34 PM

The Potentium were a group of Jedi who believed the Force was inherently good... Regardless of your actions, the Force would make things right, Yoda and the rest of the Council did not believe this. Though they neither prove this wrong nor show there beliefs to be right, as 110 years later they watch there order go down in Flames lol.
Regarding my previous post: That is the real world explanation for Luke's actions on Tatooine, my view is similar to Ctrl_Alt's, the Force is the Force, how you choose to use it reflects your alignment in the eyes of the person Judging your actions.

PoiuyWired 05-28-2008 05:51 PM

Well, there are generally 3 more common ways to associate a power manifestation to DS/LS, depending on who you ask:

1) Some powers are DS/LS while some are neutral. Though there are oftentimes LS version of DS power and vice versa.

2) Intention of Your actions dictates DS/LS/neutral/etc.

3) LS(Jedi) calls upon the force going with its flow, DS(Sith) bends the force to the wielder's will.

I personally tend to believe in (2), and considers (3) as difference between Jedi and Sith and not LS/DS. (1) would be too over-simplified and would only be good for kiddies and the like.

Sam! 05-31-2008 12:43 AM

Choking a Gammorean and knocking him out for a few minutes, I can't say I classify that as an evil deed.

M@RS 05-31-2008 01:05 AM

I think that, if you use the force to hurt a neutral character or a friend it's using the DS of the force anything else is okay

Gurges-Ahter 06-01-2008 12:40 AM

I think using the force is just like everything else in real life - it all depends on your intent. For example, choking is generally considered a dark side force power because it's used to hurt/threaten/kill, but of course it can be used in circumstances where the intent is not evil. It's a bit unnatural for a LS Jedi to use it because, in general, it's more DS-natured. In real life, this could be compared to shooting someone with a gun. In general, it's a bad/evil thing to do, but in some circumstances the intent is not evil (such as self-protection, or saving someone else's life). It's a hard thing for a good person to shoot and kill someone else, but doing so in some circumstances would not make them evil.

Ctrl Alt Del 06-01-2008 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obi-wanrules (Post 2470520)
Choking a Gammorean and knocking him out for a few minutes, I can't say I classify that as an evil deed.

It is... on the moment you determines every gamorrean is not worth the effort.

Gurges-Ahter 06-01-2008 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del (Post 2471271)
It is... on the moment you determines every gamorrean is not worth the effort.

Was it that Luke determined the gamorrean wasn't worth the effort, or was it a pre-emptive measure taken to prevent more of Jabba's crew from deterring his entrance? Perhaps if he hadn't taken such measures, he would not have had any success getting in. I don't know either way, but I think it's unfair to assume that he did so only because it "wasn't worth the effort".

TKA-001 06-01-2008 07:52 PM

I'm not sure how people can debate whether crushing someone's internal organs is evil or not. I may have missed something somewhere, but I don't recall ever hearing that it's healthy for one's insides to get mashed up.

Bottom line: Choking someone with the force is of the dark side, as is electrocuting them, draining their life energy, and so on. Trying to use choke simply to knock someone out and saying it's "for the greater good" is simply a fool's justification for toying with the dark side's corrupting power. Unfortunately, a lot of the EU ignores this fact.

M@RS 06-01-2008 11:16 PM

true...but it gives me something to do, I don't know about the rest of you, anyhow I respectively disagree with you, it depends on the intent like Gurges-Ahter

TKA-001 06-02-2008 08:14 AM

If the dark side powers were not corrupting and could just as easily be used for good, then Exar Kun would never have become a Sith.

Gurges-Ahter 06-05-2008 10:10 PM

Are Exar Kun's actions necessarily indicative of what everyone else would do?

M@RS 06-05-2008 10:20 PM

Yeah look at Kyle Katarn he choked plenty of people and used force lightning and everything you would consider the darkside, but he stayed to the lightside (mostly)...

General LiWar 06-05-2008 11:11 PM

1)If you look at the games, you can use force choke as a light side jedi and LS powers as DS jedi.
2)During this period, Luke had very little formal training, he studied with yoda for a few days then left to help his friends. The rest of it, he more or less learned by experience...
3)Luke uses a lot of different force powers during that encounter, it may have been just a little arrogance on his part. Did he really have to jump off the plank just to hop back up with the force? NO, he could've turned around and have r2 send him his saber. Luke was "not a jedi yet"

Rev7 06-05-2008 11:33 PM

But the thing is that a lot of these things are in the video games where you can practically choose what power to use. This is in the movies. You really don't see any other Jedi in the movies that actually uses force choke.

I think that Luke more or less 'stunned' the a Gammoeran. Once he got access from Bib to where Jabba was, I think that Luke would have 'let go' of the Gammorean. I see it as more of a stopping a fight before it started. My two cents...

Ctrl Alt Del 06-06-2008 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter (Post 2471365)
Was it that Luke determined the gamorrean wasn't worth the effort, or was it a pre-emptive measure taken to prevent more of Jabba's crew from deterring his entrance? Perhaps if he hadn't taken such measures, he would not have had any success getting in. I don't know either way, but I think it's unfair to assume that he did so only because it "wasn't worth the effort".

There are really a bunch of other more effective, quicker, and less crude Force techniques that can disable them, if that was his intentions.

Gurges-Ahter 06-06-2008 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del (Post 2474026)
There are really a bunch of other more effective, quicker, and less crude Force techniques that can disable them, if that was his intentions.

True. I think a less-gray Jedi might have chosen one of the other techniques. It was probably an instinctual move.

Sir Phobos 06-21-2008 05:40 AM

Luke wasn't on an even keel, sure he force choked a few thugs - the kid was going through a lot at this stage in his life. Oh and I doubt a force choke is all that hard to pull off... I mean come on.

MachineCult 06-22-2008 01:57 PM

^^^ Anakin learnt it by accident.

PoiuyWired 06-22-2008 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del (Post 2474026)
There are really a bunch of other more effective, quicker, and less crude Force techniques that can disable them, if that was his intentions.

Maybe the use of Force Choks is deliberate. Its a trademark of the dreaded Vaderafterall. Being a Jedi known to use Force Choke sounds much more deadlier than he actually is at the time.

Though Luke have his unique force attack also, the Force Kick.

The Source 06-23-2008 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del (Post 2467416)
There are things we all take for granted. I've always took Force choke (or Force Kill, for the close) as one of those things.

"What, Vader's trademark? For sure it's Darkside!"

So naive. Recently re-watching RotJ, I noticed something that I've never bothered with before. Luke actually chokes the Gamorreans guarding Jabba's palace at the entrance, killing or stunning them.

How many games do classify Kill as a DS powers? And still Luke uses it. Last I checked, only Yoda taught him, I wouldn't think he would teach a dark power to him.

I think classifying force powers to a particular side is faulty. Sure, some of them are straight out evil, but I think they all have been used both sides. Force choke, manipulation, and mind tricks are three examples.

Ctrl Alt Del 06-25-2008 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Source (Post 2483165)
I think classifying force powers to a particular side is faulty. Sure, some of them are straight out evil, but I think they all have been used both sides. Force choke, manipulation, and mind tricks are three examples.

And why do you put those three particular powers on that list? I can understand the lightside uses of mind tricks and the manipulation but I don't see it on choke.

Pho3nix 06-25-2008 03:33 PM

I think the difference is that Luke was able to force choke and not succumb to the dark side, the same way Mace Windu was able to use Vaapad.

PoiuyWired 06-25-2008 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2471638)
If the dark side powers were not corrupting and could just as easily be used for good, then Exar Kun would never have become a Sith.

Its the way Exar Kun calls upon the Force, its a Dark Side way of tapping it. The Sith bends the Force to its will rather than flowing with the force.

Well, the disabling of his LS tapping does force him to understand the way of the DS arts though. but ultimately its his choice of using it long after thw whole DS trial ordeal.

TKA-001 06-25-2008 07:07 PM

Quote:

The Sith bends the Force to its will rather than flowing with the force.
I think it would help greatlγ if you actually explained what that means.

M@RS 06-25-2008 07:19 PM

I can, instead of just letting the force control you (like the Jedi do sometimes) the Sith control the force...

K_Kinnison 06-30-2008 03:11 AM

I had a discussion with Timothy Zahn about how he used the force in his books before the prequal novels, THe movies tend to support it. And if you ignore the dialouge and focus on the action and what you see it still holds true.

and how some authors tend to use "dues es machina" too much

Yoda lifting Luke's X-wing is the limit of the power that can be used in the force.
Most FOrce powers rely on TK, precognition, and minor telepathy that is more like Empathy.

The Darkside/lightside is very similar to eastern philosophies of enlightenment, and Karma. Using the Force in anger to harm someone else is bad. But to use it to protect oneself, or protect others is good. As you start doing more and more bad stuff with the Force, there is less doubt, and less hesitation.

Anakin knew when he killed Dooku that it was bad. But there wasn't much hesitation when he went on a rampage in the Temple.

Luke did use Force Choke on the piggies because there was still a little of the old vader in him. But because he stopped himself from Killing vader, he realized he could stop himself from going to the darkside, and doing evil.

You might say that as a Jedi becomes more and more Elightened, they stop using the force, and eventually surrender themselves to nirvana becoming a being of pure force.

While a Sith uses it for power, to the point that it becomes the only thing they have, not realizing that at the moment of death, they lose everything. A few sith Lords (Exur Kun, Freedon Nadd)

Maphisto86 06-30-2008 08:59 PM

Aside from mechanics for gaming, some powers and applications of the Force where probably seen as more lightside (benevolent) or dark side (malevolent) then others by the Jedi. For example using the Force to telekenetically lift something was probably seen as a neutral application, healing was seen as beneficial to the light side as it was benevolent in nature whereas conjuring electricity or energy with the Force to strike at a target was seen as a dark side power because of the violence inherent in it.

Using the Force power of telekenesis to choke or crush someone would have probably been seen as a dark side power because it was used to hurt a living being. While Luke Skywalker used it while a Jedi initiate, he may have only stunned the guards. Still it would have probably been frowned upon by the likes of Yoda and Obi-Wan. I find listening to what Yoda says about the nature of the Force in ESB and ROTJ is how to find answers to such questions. For example, Yoda believes the Force should be used for knowledge and defense, never for attack, which would otherwise lead to the temptation of the dark side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by K_Kinnison (Post 2486489)
Yoda lifting Luke's X-wing is the limit of the power that can be used in the force.

I would have to disagree with such a hypothesis. I doubt Yoda who said, "Size matters not", would have been unable to lift anything larger than a starfighter, using the Force. He did not seem to have much difficulty raising it from the water and moving it in mid-air to the shore. The only thing standing between the use of the Force and say lifting a building is the mentality of the user and their connection to the Force.

TKA-001 06-30-2008 09:12 PM

Quote:

I can, instead of just letting the force control you (like the Jedi do sometimes) the Sith control the force...
What relevance does that hold? The force doesn't "control" anyone anymore than it does anyone else.

K_Kinnison 07-01-2008 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarthMaphisto86 (Post 2486890)
The only thing standing between the use of the Force and say lifting a building is the mentality of the user and their connection to the Force.

You haven't studied a lot of eastern philosophy. The whole idea of "Do or do not, there is no try" is that if you have any doubts, you will fail. Yoda was trying to make Luke "Empty his cup", or unlearn what he had already learned about the limits of a physical body, and was applying them to his power in the force.

If force users COULD do more then move a starfighter, then you would have seen many more opportunities for that to happen. When Dooku escaped Genosis, Akakin crash landing on Courscant, and Luke fleeing from the Executor. The limit of Power is a starfighter is size. No more. THe physical body cannot handle any more Force energy (as we read with Dorsk in Jedi Academy)

As was said in the above post... it isn't so much the power, but how the power is applied. Tho some force powers.. like Force lighting only exist to hurt, harm and kill.

Tho you have to ask, when yoda reflected back the force lighting at Dooku, was he mis-using the power of the force for the dark side?

Maphisto86 07-02-2008 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K_Kinnison (Post 2486997)
You haven't studied a lot of eastern philosophy. The whole idea of "Do or do not, there is no try" is that if you have any doubts, you will fail. Yoda was trying to make Luke "Empty his cup", or unlearn what he had already learned about the limits of a physical body, and was applying them to his power in the force.

Well I already knew that and I thought that was the point I wanted to make. That the only difference was the mind and that only doubt stands between them and what they wish to lift. I brought the connection to the Force also into equation because in both trilogies, an individual with a greater connection was seen to have more potential then others with the Jedi and the Sith.

Quote:

Originally Posted by K_Kinnison (Post 2486997)
If force users COULD do more then move a starfighter, then you would have seen many more opportunities for that to happen. When Dooku escaped Genosis, Anakin crash landing on Courscant, and Luke fleeing from the Executor. The limit of Power is a starfighter is size. No more. THe physical body cannot handle any more Force energy (as we read with Dorsk in Jedi Academy)

I do not see what you are referring to in those four events... could you be more specific. Im guessing what you mean with the third event was when the Invisible Hand, Greivous's flagship, was plummeting to Courscant's surface and Anakin had to glide it in for a landing. I bet it was that mental barrier that held him and even Obi-Wan from doing anything... though Anakin's talents as a pilot are said to be, at least in part, due to the Force.

I am confused with your last claim, however it is probably just me, due to not having read as much of the Star Wars novels (not that I do not wish to, there has just been so many! :wornout: ). Is there a physical limit to tapping into the Force? I am talking other than the amount of midi-chlorian's within a individual (although that may be a factor). Judging from the films, only the mentality of the user as well as their Force potential seems to be the limit to a Jedi or Sith's power.


Quote:

Originally Posted by K_Kinnison (Post 2486997)
As was said in the above post... it isn't so much the power, but how the power is applied. Tho some force powers.. like Force lighting only exist to hurt, harm and kill.

That almost sounds like the philosophy of the Potentium ;) I actually think that the power itself does indeed lead one to the light or dark side. It does not mean that using say, Force choke, will lead one astray to darkness (like Luke for example) but it is more likely. It's like if you kill a person, even in self-defense, it only makes it easier for you psychologically to kill again. That is why the Jedi frowned on the use of such powers... it is the quick and easy path. There are more defense oriented powers to get around any situation....


Quote:

Originally Posted by K_Kinnison (Post 2486997)
Tho you have to ask, when yoda reflected back the force lighting at Dooku, was he mis-using the power of the force for the dark side?

I don't believe so... it was a new power we saw when Yoda defended himself from the lightning attacks of Darth Tyranus and Darth Sidious. As it was passive in nature, I would say the power (Force Absorb, I believe) was more toward the Light Side of the Force. As for reflecting it back at Dooku... while that was using Force Lightning, I guess since Yoda himself did not conjure it, that he wasn't "cheating" per say. Also Yoda is no ordinary Jedi... he is an experienced and mature master who is in control of his emotions. We only saw him reflect Force Lighting in a defensive nature during combat.

Anyway, my only contention is with your claim, Kinnison, that nothing larger then an X-Wing star fighter could be lifted while using the Force. Just because it is the largest object I believe we see levitated by a Force user does not mean that larger objects can also be so manipulated. In Episode III we saw the titanic struggle between Jedi Grand Master Yoda and the Dark Lord of the Sith Palpatine, where both threw large repulsorlift pods with little effort (especially in Darth Sidious's case). That's not even mentioning the numerous "Expanded Universe" cases of huge objects being controlled and lifted by the Force. I contend that size indeed matters not. :)


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