Prove that jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes
 

No takers on the 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer, so perhaps we'll have better luck with this one:

Prove that jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes

How the heck do you expect me (a person of religion) to respond to that?

Your youtube friend has made it quite clear: Anyone who is intelligent will realize that Jesus is imaginary, and all other arguments are but excuses. The condescending language and oversimplified thought process is very put-offing.

:disaprove

_EW_

However you would like to, my friend.

Could you please help me understand what flaws exist with his reasoning or arguments?

Re: condescension - how was his language condescending?

Re: "oversimplification" - oversimplified? You'll need to help me understand how you came to this conclusion as well, please.

Thanks in advance for your response.

Well then, this is how I'm going to:

No.

I've seen what happens when theism/deism/atheism debates get started on LF and I'm not going to play. :)

Sorry, but maybe next time. Nothing personal, though.

_EW_

:lol: But you already did!

You posted to let us know that you won't be posting?

I posted to tell you that your video made some pretty large leaps (of faith, one might say :D) and that I disagreed.

But now, I've thought better of it, because I tend to not stay as calm when discussing religion. I'd rather not post, and us stay on good terms.

_EW_

No offense, but what is the point of this type of discussion supposed to be? The way I see it, nothing good or interesting can come of them.

He quoted the bible chapter and verse. No leaps were made whatsoever.

If you don't like what he said or would otherwise prefer not to discuss it, that's one thing. To parse out unsubstantiated claims that there is something wrong with the arguments presented though is something else entirely.

Even if you choose not to discuss the topic, I hope that you will at least be willing to consider my comment above nonetheless.

Take care!

Perfect world? A christian participates, sees that the arguments are sound, and subsequently gives up his or her superstitious traditions.

What I like to think I'm settling for? People not that terribly religious but have grown up within a religious tradition see this discussion, realize that there doubts were well founded, and are inspired to speak out against irrational thinking where ever they find it.

You are welcome to your opinion of course. I think that if such discussions can do anything remotely like either of the scenarios above, then much good has come of them. That's my 2 cents.

Note to posters. If a topic is of unworthy discussion then it may be in your best interest ,and that of the forums, to not post in said topic.

If you disagree with a point made in a discussion thread, it is common courtesy and sense to reply with reasonings to your point. It cannot be in any way a discussion if you simply say "I disagree". Otherwise it becomes a waste of time and my moderating abilities.

Enjoy your tea, Gentlemen.

There's enough historical evidence in religious texts(the bible, the koran) and secular references(Roman records) that more or less prove Jesus was a real historical figure. There isn't much modern evidence that suggest he is the son of God, though.

I'd be interested in knowing which sources you're referring too. Every source I've looked at makes reference to the existence of christianity, but that isn't the same thing (any more than finding evidence of a Harry Potter fan club is evidence of there being a real Harry Potter).

As such (again unless you have access to something that I haven't seen), there isn't any reason to assume that there was a historical Jesus.

True. If there isn't any evidence for a historical Jesus, then the whole "son of god" thing falls apart too. However, even if there were evidence for a historical Jesus (specifically that jesus), then the question of divinity would still need to be addressed.

I simply think that you are mis-interpreting the scriptures. :) I would explain a little bit more, but I really need to get to bed soon. :)

I certainly know that he has appeared to me. ;) I believe that he only 'appears' to us if we have a open-heart and truly believe in Him. :)
Really? Is there any proof to this?

I certainly know that this is not what you want to hear Achilles. Christianity is a religion of faith. That is all that it comes down to.

Thank you for reading.

I look forward to your reply after you've had an opportunity to rest.

A physical manifestation that could only be jesus appeared to you (hopefully with witnesses)?

Well, unless jesus physically appears to you, then yes. :)

As is islam, paganism, ancestor worship, hinduism, and any other religion you can think of. I'm not seeing how that makes it special or unique...or, most importantly, true.

My pleasure. Look forward to seeing you again soon.

After further review(using Wikipedia, naturally), it appears that most early external sources do reference only Christians, not Jesus personally.

I appreciate you looking anyway. Thank you, sir!

EDIT: Btw, Tyrion, you might enjoy the movie The God Who Wasn't There (assuming that you haven't seen it already). Trailer

I'd say Jesus being imaginary is a bunch of crap. How can a religion be started about someone who never existed? Also, he is mentioned in more than one type of religion: Islam, even.
The thing I DON'T believe though is that he was anything more than a man. Messenger, maybe, but God or 1/3 God....I don't think so.

Ever play the game "Telephone"?

Are you arguing therefore that the titans must have really existed? The pantheon of Greek gods? The Roman gods? The Norse gods? The Egyptian gods? The Japanese gods? All the various gods from Native American mythology? Shall I go on?

I mean, how can a religion be started about someone who never existed?

(hint: you can't have it both ways)

Can you point to any evidence whatsoever that supports the argument that a man named Jesus existed where the stories said he did? The same sources that tell us of his existence also tell us that he was divine, so arguing that he was real but not divine seems an awful lot like cherry picking.

Now you're arguing the other side? Does it really have to be all or nothing?

Are they typos, are are you trying to make a point as to your regard for Jesus & religion?

_EW_

Not at all. What makes you say that?

Yes, what the source asserts is either true or it is not. That's just the way things work. That isn't my decision.

Don't ask what I do with dollar bills and sharpies.

Okay, sorry that it has been a while, but I have been at school all day. :)

You see, Jesus appeared to me. Not physically, but He has appeared to me through acts, He has appeared by talking to me, ect.

Is it any different than air? In my case, you know that it is there, but you cannot actually see it.




Okay...that doesn't nescisarily make sense to me. Could you please explain a little bit more?

You will probably think that this is irrelevant, but I will still say it. :)


Okay. I will get started...
Well, the same thing can be said abour prayer. If God is real, then how can he answer all of our prayers? There are still mysteries, that cannot be solved about Him. We cannot know everything about Him. ;) (IMO)

Well, I believe that this is His presense. An "annointing"? As for the anything part, that doesn't necsicarily mean that he has to 'grant' it.

I know that you will just say that I have just made up another "excuse". This is my opinion, and aren't we all allowed to have our opinion. I know that you have your opinion on this matter (as well as others), and I have my opinion on these matters too. We all believe different things to be true. I want to let you know that I respect your opinion. :)
As do I. :)

No problem :)

Acts can be coincidental and "voices" can be the symptoms of psychosis. Per the video (and scripture) we know that jesus can appear to people and that he has appeared to people. So what good reason do we have to explain why he hasn't appeared to you?

We have evidence for the existence of air, therefore the analogy does not apply :)

If you prayed for jesus to appear and he did not, then your prayer was not answered. Therefore we know that your prayer was ignored.

This doesn't address my point. Other religions require faith as well, therefore you cannot argue that christianity is somehow unique in this regard or that requiring faith makes it true.

It requires faith to believe that invisible fairies ride around in my shirt pocket too, but that doesn't mean that they exist.

That doesn't tell me anything.

The passage clearly states that jesus can appear to people and has appeared to people. Are you disputing that?

Gee, that sounds very similar to Excuse #2 :xp:

We are entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts. :)

I understand that it is your opinion that he has misinterpreted those passages, however you haven't really presented an argument showing how he misinterpreted them or show why we should accept your opinion over his.

Take care.

Now you have a little bit mad...to this quote, yes it wasn't answered, but not because he doesn't exist, it's because he didn't feel it would help you...for example say I prayed for a Porsche, would he give to me, it depends on how I am, if I always take take take, and never give back, then no, I'm not going to get one, if I'm always giving in tithes and offerings, then I have a chance of getting one, it all depends on the person, and the consequence...

We aren't talking about a Porsche. We're talking about someone that, according to scripture:

1) Can appear to us
2) Has appeared to others
3) Is already among us

Not asking for a car. Not asking for money. Just asking him to do something that he (allegedly) can do and has (allegedly) already done.

Can you not read the "For Example" part, if not I'll make it bigger...

You can make the text as large as you like but it isn't going to make your analogy comparable.

You did this in the last thread... :disaprove it was an example, GOOD LORD! don't you get that?! EXAMPLE! it was so you could get it, it's not supposed to be what you're talking about, it's an example.

Yes, I get that. And I am pointing out that it is a poor one; jesus appearing and god giving you a car are not comparable.

It's an example, if you want a better one just tell me...

Yeah, if you have a better one, that would be great.

Okay, first of all I think I should apologize, for screaming at you like I did. I'm sorry, I read Romans 2 and I felt I should apologize.

And another example, hmm, give me a while to think about this one...

Alright, let's take an omniscent Bumblebee (transformers) and Sam asked Bumblebee to show himself to Sam, and Bumblebee didn't because someone else had claimed that Bumblebee showed up to them and had coffe with them... Now let's put that in the sense of God and you...if God (Jesus) showed himself to you and you went telling other people, noone would believe you because people have already made a mockery of it, like I had coffee with Jesus or lunch...They would make fun of you, and if you were a christian, then God wouldn't show himself...

Does that work?

Yes I know that He has appeared to people. He can appear to anyone and has done so. My mother has a picture of Jesus standing on the wing of an airplane. Her friend gave this to her in the 1980's. I cannot prove that to you though because I don't personally have the picture. It is not on the Internet either. :) That is all that I will say about that for now, and all that I will say about it. ;)
I believe that we have evidence of existance of Jesus too. The Bible. :)

Yup. You do not really know if our prayer was ignored. How do you really have proof of this?

Other religions require faith too. I am not saying that they don't.

That is exactly what I am saying Achilles. It does require faith to believe that invisible fairies are riding around in your shirt pocket. It does require faith to believe that Jesus exists.

What about gravity? We know that it keeps us on Earth. For all we know, we have invisible fairies holding us down. ;)

Not at all. :)

I knew that you would say that. ;)

"You will probably think that this is irrelevant, but I will still say it."

Are you saying that the people that make up the "facts" are really stating their own opinion?



You too.

You're still trying to use an example of something relatively extraordinary as an analogy for something relatively ordinary.

Even if he would not appear to me for fear that I would mock him (even though I've stated repeatedly that all it would take for me to become a believer is some evidence), that doesn't explain why he does not appear to you or Rev7.

Sounds like an interesting picture.

We have evidence for allah via the qu'ran, for the Flying Spaghetti Monster via the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and for Harry Potter via the best selling books. But I'm willing to bet that you aren't a muslim, a Pastafarian, or a pracitioner of wizardry. Why not?

Either the prayer was answered or it was not.

You're not responding to the argument in it's entirety. :rolleyes:

Does this mean that you will now pray to invisible fairies, magic teapots, or any other silly thing I think up as an example?

Why would a rational person accept this hypothesis? Why would a rational person accept this hypothesis over any of the other countless possible explanations that are all equally untestable?

Then I'm struggling to understand what your point was.

Yes you did. Which tells me that you're smart enough to know better :)

No, what I'm saying is, "don't bring opinions to a fact fight". ;)

Your opinions do not change what the bible says. If you are not disputing what the bible says, then you are not discounting the author's arguments. And if you are not discounting the author's arguments then I'm left to wonder on what grounds you are contesting what he said (since that seemed to be your original point).

As I said in the above, if I told someone that I was a christian and Jesus had shown himself to me, they would say that I was a religious freak and make fun of me AND God...

And hopefully here is some evidence (a story is about to be told about my father below)

My dad was going through a really hard time, and at a service he went to the altar and was praying to God to give him his identity, no sooner had he thought the word IDENTITY, the pastor said, _______ God has told me to tell you one word, IDENTITY... Today my dad's a pastor and he's never been happier

Why not? I don't believe any of that stuff to be true, and wizardry is not a good thing in my eyes. ;) I am also not muslim. I don't believe those things to be true.
Okay? How do you know that it wasn't answered?
I don't understand what you are saying. I know what faith is.

Where exactly did I say that?

I don't accept that as truth. I was just making a point. Whether or not you saw that point, I don't know. :)

I am curious why a large number of people believe that Jesus was real/is real? Are you saying that all of these people are irrational?

That he does/can appear to people?
I was putting myself in your shoes. ;)

Okay, I guess that I mis-interpreted you then. I am sorry.

I don't quite understand what you are trying to get across....how am I disputing what the Bible says....??


Good Night! :D

Completely irrelevant.

"Pinch, poke, you owe me a coke" is your evidence for god?

You're not making any sense whatsoever...in what's with the "coke" saying...you asked for evidence I gave you a second hand story I was told from my dad...That's evidence isn't it? I forgot to say that, he experienced the whole thing, you think he'd lie to me?

Why do you believe in christianity? Thus far you have just as much evidence for that as you do these other things. Is your selection arbitrary?

Because jesus didn't appear.

"Faith" is not a good argument. If you know that "faith" is required for other things, then "faith" doesn't seem like a particularly rigorous way of determining truth.

It was a question. You're free to answer however you'd like.

Your point wasn't much of a point :)

Since this isn't Kavar's I think I'm still allowed to say "yes".

..at least with regards to their beliefs.

What is your evidence? If you believe this is true then what is your source of contention with the author's video?

Being able to figure out what someone else is going to say before they say it is a good skill to have. The best way to apply it is to not say what you were going to if their response isn't something you can counter. :)

If you are contesting what the author says then you are contesting what the bible says. If you are not contesting what the bible says, then you cannot contest what the author says. Unless you can somehow demonstrate that what the author says skews what it actually said in the bible. Which you have opted not to do up to this point.

I hope that helps to clarify.

This should help.

No sir it is not. No more so than it is evidence that your father's pastor was psychic.

No need for lies. I have no doubt that the events really happened. I have every reason to doubt that they signify what you seem to think they signify (or what he thought they signified, etc).

Okay first of all, don't treat me stupid, with the Jinx I know what it is, what I asked was why did you say that? And they do signify what my father and I knew it signified, show how it wasn't :carms:

That isn't what you asked at all.

The burden of proof is yours, sir. There are numerous possible explanations, not the least of which is the aforementioned psychic abilities (which I don't believe either but since I can't rule it out...). Therefore, the conclusion that you've accepted is not the only one and the others have not been ruled out.

The fact that we have the "jinx" game tells us that people thinking or saying things at the same time is by no stretch of the imagination a rare occurrence.