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-   -   The current look on the Lightsaber Combat, my thoughts. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=190205)

Nicomon 07-06-2008 09:51 PM

The current look on the Lightsaber Combat, my thoughts.
 
So i've been watching all the gameplay videos 'n all that considering TFU, (like no doubt all of us here.) and frankly, i'm pretty disappointed by some aspects of the lightsabering.

The main problems here that are concerning me are firstly, the most basic fact about the Lightsaber; it doesn't dismember, surely because George Lucas is involved it has propably effected the fact whether the lightsaber should dismember or not, since in the movies, we don't really see much of that, except droids getting ripped apart (which really doesn't count) Darth Maul being cut in two, Anakin losing part of his arm, and later losing both of his legs, among many others.

.. Wait a minute, what is this about then? Maybe there's no dismemberment because it's more of a "children's game" or something? Teen rating i think? Please somebody correct me if i'm wrong. Anywayyy.... onto my next complainment:

The lightsaber stance, he's kinda holding it behind him, so it looks like he doesn't even give a **** about blaster fire, maybe it is because he is The Apprentice so he can already see in advance whether blaster shots hit him or not, so that's why he isn't concerned at all.

But yeah, we haven't seen any Saber v Saber combat yet, so maybe (most likely) he'll change the stance while he duels.

Then again, we've never seen a character this powerful, so we don't really know how one, who can even take down Star Destroyers would react infront of blaster fire or in lightsaber duels, maybe time will tell, eh? :)

and kudos for you if you readed this all the way through, i don't wanna sound like a whiny brat, i love TFU already, but i'm a longtime JK2 veteran since '03 and for me it looks somewhat weird how he acts with a Lightsaber.


Now, thoughts? :)

Ctrl Alt Del 07-06-2008 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicomon (Post 2490131)
.. Wait a minute, what is this about then? Maybe there's no dismemberment because it's more of a "children's game" or something? Teen rating i think? Please somebody correct me if i'm wrong.

You answered it.

Quote:

The lightsaber stance, he's kinda holding it behind him, so it looks like he doesn't even give a **** about blaster fire, maybe it is because he is The Apprentice so he can already see in advance whether blaster shots hit him or not, so that's why he isn't concerned at all.
Stetic choice. Plus, it looks cool. Besides, holding the saber that way doesn't mean that he can't quickly change his stance to put the saber on the front. No need to mention that he can't be taken off-guard as blaster fire from behind can be easily deflected.

Quote:

But yeah, we haven't seen any Saber v Saber combat yet, so maybe (most likely) he'll change the stance while he duels.
Don't count on it. It's his personal style, just like Dooku doesn't change his.

Quote:

and kudos for you if you readed this all the way through, i don't wanna sound like a whiny brat, i love TFU already, but i'm a longtime JK2 veteran since '03 and for me it looks somewhat weird how he acts with a Lightsaber.
You didn't, those are very common complaints and I even share your disappointment on the lack of dismemberment. ;)

Davinq 07-06-2008 11:36 PM

Welcome to the forums Nicomon, and I completely agree.

To fully explain your dismemberment comment though, I would imagine that a Teen rating isn't high enough to justify that, since few other Teen rated games contain violence of that graphic magnitude. Besides, that can be fixed with a few little cheats I would think. Aren't there codes for total dismemberment in JK?

Nicomon 07-07-2008 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davinq (Post 2490177)
Welcome to the forums Nicomon, and I completely agree.

To fully explain your dismemberment comment though, I would imagine that a Teen rating isn't high enough to justify that, since few other Teen rated games contain violence of that graphic magnitude. Besides, that can be fixed with a few little cheats I would think. Aren't there codes for total dismemberment in JK?

Thanks! And yeah, there is one cheat that lets you cut pretty much every limb of the enemy, you also could adjust it's effectiveness by putting a different number after the code.

For example g_saberRealisticCombat 1-5

Which got pretty ridiculous if you put it to the max, because even if you just merely poked the enemy with your lightsaber's tip, all of his limbs were cut off. :rolleyes:

PoiuyWired 07-08-2008 08:44 PM

Give it a cheat code like g_saberRealisticCombat, then you can sneak it into Teen ratings without dumbing up the combat. a 5 is too unrealistic, but a 2-3 is nice.

Lego starwars got dismemberment on...

Serpentine Cougar 07-09-2008 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicomon (Post 2490131)
But yeah, we haven't seen any Saber v Saber combat yet, so maybe (most likely) he'll change the stance while he duels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctrl Alt Del (Post 2490134)
Don't count on it. It's his personal style, just like Dooku doesn't change his.

How would that work, though? Would he fight with his back to the opponent? Or twist his hand backwards in some weird position?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoiuyWired (Post 2491020)
Lego starwars got dismemberment on...

QFE.

Prime 07-09-2008 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicomon (Post 2490131)
it doesn't dismember, surely because George Lucas is involved it has propably effected the fact whether the lightsaber should dismember or not, since in the movies, we don't really see much of that, except droids getting ripped apart (which really doesn't count) Darth Maul being cut in two, Anakin losing part of his arm, and later losing both of his legs, among many others.

And Fett's head, Dooku's hands and head, Windu's hands, Gree's head, Ponda Baba's arm, Luke's hand, Vader's hand, and... :)

Ctrl Alt Del 07-09-2008 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serpentine (Post 2491261)
How would that work, though? Would he fight with his back to the opponent? Or twist his hand backwards in some weird position?

The whole concept of his style is to attack. He'd have to avoid getting hit at all, I think. Besides, it's a style, each has it's own strong and weak points, but still can be used on almost any situation.

MeleeMaster 07-09-2008 08:38 PM

If he's engaging a Jedi in a toe-to-toe lightsaber duel he's just asking to get his butt kicked if it's not his style to block anything with his lightsaber.

Isn't that one of the main uses of a lightsaber to a jedi/force sensitive? To use it and their force connection to block and deflect blasterfire as well as other lightsabers and to defend themselves?

I'm not saying he can't dodge things instead of blocking them, but even if he was yoda, the secret apprentice probably wouldn't be able to dodge every single blaster bolts and lightsaber slash coming his way. And if he's going to be dueling any Jedi, he should be able to block/defend with his lightsaber too.

Jason Skywalker 07-10-2008 10:54 AM

I think that Starkiller only uses that style to deflect blaster bolts, which seem to be the main weapon of the main enemy: stormtroopers (main as in majority).

Maphisto86 07-11-2008 02:13 PM

In response about the backward lightsaber stance, Adi Gallia is seen doing this in a cutscene of the game "Jedi Starfighter". It's meant to look cool really... I have not seen a sword style like that in martial arts but it doesn't mean there is not one. Anyway as others have said, it is simple to spin the saber around to the more orthodox fashion if need be. We see Starkiller fight in the "normal" way in several cutscenes and fighting in the game.

As far as I see there is not much dismemberment but the use of Force powers more than makes up for it. You can still impale your enemies in the game which is a must. Also not every lightsaber strike to a person's torso cut the person in two when seen in the films. For example, this can be seen when Luke attacks Jabba's guards in ROTJ and Anakin murders the Separatist leaders in ROTS.

Zerimar Nyliram 07-11-2008 04:59 PM

This is why I hope they eventually give in and port it to PC: so that modders can take care of the dismemberment problem, and other things.

TKA-001 07-11-2008 05:39 PM

Quote:

As far as I see there is not much dismemberment but the use of Force powers more than makes up for it.
This statement I find to be absolutely absurd. There is no excuse for the absence of lightsaber dismemberment in a game such as this.

M@RS 07-11-2008 07:08 PM

it'll probably have a little bit of dismemberment, like in JO and JA, you could cut off arms and legs...I'd prefer a little bit of dismemberment, but not like the saber realistic combat cheat, that's just too much for me, I'm not the violent type ;) There is an excuse for the absence of lightsaber dismemberment in a game such as this...

Astor 07-11-2008 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M@RS (Post 2492614)
There is an excuse for the absence of lightsaber dismemberment in a game such as this...

No, I dont think there is. Not when the films have shown and proven that a lightsaber is an immutable blade of energy, capable of easily cutting through durasteel as easily as flesh.

If it is trying to stay true to the films, it needs dismemberment.

RyuuKage 07-11-2008 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine (Post 2492622)
No, I dont think there is. Not when the films have shown and proven that a lightsaber is an immutable blade of energy, capable of easily cutting through durasteel as easily as flesh.

If it is trying to stay true to the films, it needs dismemberment.

by the same token, there's almost no dismemberment in the films aside from battle droids.

Jeff 07-11-2008 09:05 PM

Yeah, I mean you see the main characters like Luke and Anakin get limbs chopped off but the enemies you will be fighting most of the game, stormtroopers, hardly get dismembered save for Yoda beheading a couple of them. I guess I just don't really have a problem with it.

TKA-001 07-11-2008 11:04 PM

Quote:

by the same token, there's almost no dismemberment in the films aside from battle droids.
Strawman argument. The reason the main characters, the droids, and some of the clones are pretty much the only ones to get chopped up by lightsabers is not because lightsabers can't or don't chop things up. It's because they're the only ones who get hit with a lightsaber.

Quote:

I'd prefer a little bit of dismemberment, but not like the saber realistic combat cheat, that's just too much for me, I'm not the violent type
I hated the g_saberrealisticcombat cheat. It didn't satisfy the dismemberment need that I had (I know that sounds kind of creepy, but hear me out). Why? Because it didn't make the saber realistic. With it on, when you hit a stormtrooper (for example) with your saber, he would almost every time lose a ton of limbs, and most of them were limbs which the lightsaber didn't actually cut. It was lazily done. A lightsaber stroke shouldn't usually cut off more than one or two limbs, but the half-assed job they did in Jedi Outcast/Academy was (in something of a paradox) both over-the-top and unappealing.

Darca Lar 07-12-2008 01:22 AM

Dismemberment doesn't really concern me all that much here, the thing I want to look at is combat flow, though I'm sure its fine but I've been wrong before.

As for the whole holding the saber backwards ordeal its really a style of his own. Mace Windu I believe also had his own style along with his specially made saber. Holding the saber backwards is sort of the same as having a double-bladed saber or two separate sabers, or even the saber whip that Githany used in the first Darth Bane novel. Its unorthodox and when used against someone not trained to fight against it could easily be defeated.

And as others have said, he could simply twist his wrist and spin the saber up into a quick defensive formation or to catch he enemy off guard for a quick kill.

Over all, even if its a Teen rating, if it plays well and the story is compelling I'll buy it.

Astor 07-12-2008 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyuuKage (Post 2492654)
by the same token, there's almost no dismemberment in the films aside from battle droids.

Oh yeah, because Darth Maul, Dooku, and others just simply fell to pieces due to some other reason than the lightsaber that cut straight through them.

TriggerGod 07-12-2008 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine (Post 2492806)
Oh yeah, because Darth Maul, Dooku, and others just simply fell to pieces due to some other reason than the lightsaber that cut straight through them.

Just... like... legos...
So, according to you, Ryuu, Anikin never lost his limbs, Dooku didn't lose his head, Maul didn't lose the top/bottom half of his body. Oh, thats good to know. So I guess Vader could use Force Lightning, thanks to his organic limbs :)

RyuuKage 07-12-2008 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2492703)
Strawman argument. The reason the main characters, the droids, and some of the clones are pretty much the only ones to get chopped up by lightsabers is not because lightsabers can't or don't chop things up. It's because they're the only ones who get hit with a lightsaber.


I hated the g_saberrealisticcombat cheat. It didn't satisfy the dismemberment need that I had (I know that sounds kind of creepy, but hear me out). Why? Because it didn't make the saber realistic. With it on, when you hit a stormtrooper (for example) with your saber, he would almost every time lose a ton of limbs, and most of them were limbs which the lightsaber didn't actually cut. It was lazily done. A lightsaber stroke shouldn't usually cut off more than one or two limbs, but the half-assed job they did in Jedi Outcast/Academy was (in something of a paradox) both over-the-top and unappealing.

I don't think you're getting the point. No one (at least with any brain cells) argues that lightsabers aren't gonna chop basically everything they touch in half. The reason they don't in games is (a) it's frickin' hard to do that with everything, and (b) it would jack up the rating, as well as be more harshly violent than Star Wars generally is. The movies and such are certainly violent, but they aren't gory or anything. They're just trying to keep within the general style, if i've made any sense, lol.

@ trigger, astor: good god, i hardly think three people (that i can think of atm) losing limbs or getting chopped in half qualifies for anything other than "almost none" as far as actual people goes. I never said "no dismemberment". I think some people need to brush up on reading comprehension...

Astor 07-12-2008 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyuuKage (Post 2492983)
I think some people need to brush up on reading comprehension...

Well actually, I don't think that's really necessary.

Anyways, let's look at the amount of dismemberment in the films:

Darth Maul
Anakin Skywalker (both legs and arms at varying points)
Luke Skywalker
Count Dooku
Mace Windu
Jango Fett
Ponda Baba
A Wampa
Commander Gree

There's probably more, but they're the most memorable ones. However few there may be, I would hardly class that as 'next to none'. Plus, the EU (whether you choose to follow it or not) has plenty of evidence of dismemberment by lightsaber.

Rev7 07-12-2008 02:58 PM

I am pretty sure that there will be some dismemberment in the game. Look at Star Wars: Episode III the game, there was dismemberment on that and the game was rated T. You see it in the movies, too. I think that it would be cool, but in the trailers you don't see it happen. It doesn't really matter to me all that much because the game is going to be awesome anyways without limbs being chopped off.

I'm really not worried about the lightsaber combat in the game. I'm pretty sure that it is centered around force powers, in The Force Unleashed.

TKA-001 07-12-2008 03:43 PM

Quote:

it would jack up the rating
How would it jack up the rating? If Vader can be shown burning to death and Dooku's head getting lopped off didn't jack up the rating for Episode III (PG-13), then why should it be any different for a video game?

Ctrl Alt Del 07-12-2008 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2493041)
How would it jack up the rating? If Vader can be shown burning to death and Dooku's head getting lopped off didn't jack up the rating for Episode III (PG-13), then why should it be any different for a video game?

No idea. Level of detail, perhaps? Not an movie adaptation, maybe? Post Manhunt 2 game, by chance?

Ali1392 07-12-2008 08:40 PM

its a game so since your doing it and supposidly it would turn us all into murderers the ratings for the same type of gore are ussually higher in games

RyuuKage 07-12-2008 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2493041)
How would it jack up the rating? If Vader can be shown burning to death and Dooku's head getting lopped off didn't jack up the rating for Episode III (PG-13), then why should it be any different for a video game?

cuz the ESRB is squeamish, i thought that was a well-known fact? XD

and who's pondo baba? lol

I'm not debating that lightsabers cut people in half! of course they do! i'm just saying it's not exactly necessary in a game, it's not like it adds anything to gameplay or anything. dont' get me wrong, i'd like dismemberment (like Ninja Gaiden II level's pretty good...could use a bit more from what i've seen), but in the end it's really nothing more than (generally pointless) graphical flair.

Ctrl Alt Del 07-12-2008 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyuuKage (Post 2493197)
dont' get me wrong, i'd like dismemberment (like Ninja Gaiden II level's pretty good...could use a bit more from what i've seen), but in the end it's really nothing more than (generally pointless) graphical flair.

Oh, Ninja Gaiden 2 takes it to unwanted levels even for the most sadistic players you'd find playing Star Wars games. I mean, even if we take away all the currant juice the fallen, ripped-off ninjas leave after some beating, there would still be so numerous lungs on the floor that, combined with the memory-consuming Euphoria and DMM systems, it would lag as hell.

And, a leg here and an arm there isn't much to ask. Isn't a new Ryu Hayabusa, is it?

RyuuKage 07-13-2008 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctrl Alt Del (Post 2493207)
Oh, Ninja Gaiden 2 takes it to unwanted levels even for the most sadistic players you'd find playing Star Wars games. I mean, even if we take away all the currant juice the fallen, ripped-off ninjas leave after some beating, there would still be so numerous lungs on the floor that, combined with the memory-consuming Euphoria and DMM systems, it would lag as hell.

And, a leg here and an arm there isn't much to ask. Isn't a new Ryu Hayabusa, is it?

all i've played so far is the demo and i've only seen arms, legs, and heads go flying, lol

Lord Foley 07-13-2008 11:29 PM

I really don't see the big deal about dismemberment... at all.

Really, if the game is fun, is the lack of dismemberment going to ruin it for you? If the game isn't, is it going to save it in your eyes?

Sure, it might be kinda cool, but I don't particularly care. I want to kick ass, but if the dead guys refuse to fall apart, so be it.

TKA-001 07-14-2008 12:16 AM

The reason dismemberment is viewed as a big deal is because it has a lot to do with immersion.

Lord Foley 07-14-2008 12:59 PM

But at the same rate, yes, there is plenty of dismemberment in Star Wars, but is it really everywhere? In the beginning of RotJ Luke was fighting with a lightsaber, and I didn't see any body parts go flying. I don't think everybody has to be cut to bits for it to feel like a lightsaber.

TKA-001 07-14-2008 01:02 PM

Your example is only an example of where they failed to have proper immersion. They didn't even have a burn on them or anything.

RyuuKage 07-14-2008 02:38 PM

*facepalm*

so basically if your only argument is immersion, then you won't be satisfied until EVERYTHING is destructible with a lightsaber? (aside from other lightsabers and and select materials)

Ctrl Alt Del 07-15-2008 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyuuKage (Post 2493956)
so basically if your only argument is immersion, then you won't be satisfied until EVERYTHING is destructible with a lightsaber? (aside from other lightsabers and and select materials)

Pretty much every placeable is destructible.

Lord Foley 07-16-2008 01:20 PM

Honestly, if we want to have proper immersion, I should be able to cut a hole in every single wall and jump out of the building.

MeleeMaster 07-21-2008 10:31 PM

After seeing the new trailer, it's cool to know that the apprentice will actually do some blocking and parrying in saber fights, or at least it definately looks like it, especially when he goes into that saberlock with Darth Vader (I mean, of course he can and will block and deflect things with his saber, but that backwards saber stance thing and the fact that we hadn't seen any saber to saber action yet made it seem kind of iffy).

homiJ15 07-23-2008 08:37 PM

So i was watching the 1st level that you get to play Starkiller as (Tie Fighter construction place) at E3 and the apprentice ran into the r2-d2 type droids and some Gonk droids and he slashed them with his saber and to my great suprise they were sliced in half where he sliced them at. just wondering that if they coded droids to be mutilated like that, and since Hayden Blackman intended the game to be more violent, that maybe the boys at Lucasart has a cheat code or something that will allow you to mutilate stormtroopers and such?

RyuuKage 07-23-2008 09:34 PM

droids aren't human (or even organic), so chopping them to bits is okay, lol


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