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DoubleDHZ 08-24-2008 08:44 AM

The last Jedi?!
 
I just started playing KotOR2:TSL

Now what rfeally confuses me, is this female Jedi called Kreia and telling me I'm the last Jedi? WTF?

She neither has DS alignment nor does she act like a Sith. So why is she no jedi?

I even don't get any dialog options to ask her about this oddity.

I'm currently in hyperspace after leaving Peragus. Have I missed something? Will this matter clarify later in the game?

Arátoeldar 08-24-2008 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleDHZ (Post 2515167)
I just started playing KotOR2:TSL

Now what rfeally confuses me, is this female Jedi called Kreia and telling me I'm the last Jedi? WTF?

She neither has DS alignment nor does she act like a Sith. So why is she no jedi?

I even don't get any dialog options to ask her about this oddity.

I'm currently in hyperspace after leaving Peragus. Have I missed something? Will this matter clarify later in the game?

The plot will revel itself to you as you finish the game. The plot will not be spoon feed to you. You will have to think for yourself.

Ztalker 08-24-2008 10:35 AM

It depends on how you look at it. Maybe she thinks you are the last Jedi because the rest of the Jedi are all wimps? Or losers?

In any case, she's blind so she wouldn't spot another Jedi if he sat in front of her.

Corinthian 08-24-2008 12:35 PM

It's pretty much a crock. Everybody and their ma is a Jedi. You're just the Last Jedi who isn't actually a Jedi...the plot's really not very well thought out, to be honest.

Burnseyy 08-24-2008 03:21 PM

I never got that 'last jedi' thing. It would have made sense if it was because Kreia was an exile... but so is the main character, so there's not really an explenation for it.

Maybe it's what the sith consider the last jedi... and since the sith KNOW Kreia, then they know she's not worth it... and they think the rest of them are dead. Including Atris, Kavar, Zez Kai Ell and Vrook. >_>

Achilles 08-24-2008 03:30 PM

I think the emphasis is that the Exile is the last known Jedi.

[debatable point]Kreia doesn't have any attachment the Jedi Order, as she was exiled as Master Kae. Therefore there's no reason to associate "Kreia" with the Jedi and the Sith Lords know this.[/debatable point]

Kavar, Vrook, and Zez Kai Ell went into hiding. Atris was similarly off the radar, as those three though she died on Katarr.

Had the premise been "the last known Force user" we'd have inconsistencies, but as it stands, the story holds up.

Ctrl Alt Del 08-24-2008 03:41 PM

^Achilles words are mine.

Corinthian 08-24-2008 03:47 PM

The Exile isn't a Jedi anymore. Expelled from the Order, remember? He's just a renegade Force User.

Ctrl Alt Del 08-24-2008 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corinthian (Post 2515370)
The Exile isn't a Jedi anymore. Expelled from the Order, remember? He's just a renegade Force User.

The Sith doesn't seem to see the difference. If the Exile is not with them...

Corinthian 08-24-2008 03:58 PM

Yes, yes, but you don't see them harping on about the other 'Force Adepts'.

DoubleDHZ 08-24-2008 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles (Post 2515355)
[debatable point]Kreia doesn't have any attachment the Jedi Order, as she was exiled as Master Kae. Therefore there's no reason to associate "Kreia" with the Jedi and the Sith Lords know this.[/debatable point]

This guy from the title screen calls her "Master", before he cuts off Kreias hand.
For me that's evidence enough, that he knows she's a jedi.

Anyway, as long as this clears up, as Arátoeldar says, that'll suffice for the time being.

Still it's pretty odd. If this would be a pen & paper RPG, that would be the very first question I, respectively my char, would ask...

Ctrl Alt Del 08-24-2008 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corinthian
Yes, yes, but you don't see them harping on about the other 'Force Adepts'.

Okay, there you caught me. Just maybe they were looking for the Exile in particular because he probably was the most famed ex-Jedi around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleDHZ
This guy from the title screen, calls her "Master" before, he cuts off Kreias hand.
For me that's evidence enough, that he knows she's a jedi.

Not wanting to spoil anything for you, but that's not true. Would he call her master when he's obviously not a Jedi?

Corinthian 08-24-2008 04:23 PM

Master does not just refer to a Jedi Master.

DoubleDHZ 08-24-2008 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctrl Alt Del (Post 2515386)
Not wanting to spoil anything for you, but that's not true. Would he call her master when he's obviously not a Jedi?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corinthian (Post 2515395)
Master does not just refer to a Jedi Master.

Okay, I was purely assuming, that he is a jedi/sith. Just because he's on the title screen and came with the harbinger along with the sith/force adept-assassins.

I probably have to play a bit further to gain bit more insight into the plot. As far I can tell it's pretty confusing at the beginning :P

SpoonCake 08-24-2008 05:45 PM

You are called "The Last of the Jedi" because it is BELIEVED that all of the other Jedi have died either physically or mentally. There was only two fates left from the two wars they faced. Either you died in one of the two wars in combat or the events hit you so hard that you turned away from everything the Jedi stood for.

Still, Krea and the Sith Lords believe you to be the last one because they believe that you are the only one left that will do anything to stop them, such as a Jedi would.

The game is confusing at the beginning because the game was basically rushed to be finished. Instead of taking the time to make sure that the game was finished and bug free as possible, they were trying to rush to make a deadline that they ultimately wouldn't have been able to meet.

I'm not going to give away the game or anything, but the confusion is cleared up the first time you board the ebon hawk and have a good talk with Krea.

Hopefully with the new KOTOR game that they'll be making, they will make sure that they give themselves enough time to design the game in a way that's as bug free as possible, and making sure that the story line was better laid out. Most people like KOTOR1'S story line because you get into more details and you end up having more clearity about what's going on and the game itself.

Ctrl Alt Del 08-24-2008 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleDHZ (Post 2515399)
Okay, I was purely assuming, that he is a jedi/sith. Just because he's on the title screen and came with the harbinger along with the sith/force adept-assassins.

Your thoughts aren't wrong, but if he's a Sith and call her a master, that most certainly doesn't configure a Jedi out of her.

Burnseyy 08-25-2008 10:22 PM

'Last known jedi' or is it... 'last known threat to the sith'?

;)

Corinthian 08-26-2008 03:19 PM

...Ignoring Revan, Bastila, and every other scrag Jedi Knight out there (The Great Jedi Purge was successful and they still left tens of thousands of Jedi alive if SWG is to be believed. This one didn't even warrant a 'Great' behind it.)

Burnseyy 08-31-2008 11:24 PM

Revan's off in the Unknown regions, and all the other Jedi are off hiding.
The Exile's the only one who is oblivious to most of what's going on, since he/she's been travelling so much, and could be a threat to the sith. Defeating that would mean the other Jedi were all in hiding and too afraid to do anything about it.

Corinthian 08-31-2008 11:34 PM

Which really makes no sense, given that it's already been established that Bastila is both alive, bold, and rash enough to try to tackle Sion single-handedly.

jonathan7 09-01-2008 06:44 AM

Clarification - I don't think any of the council are regarded as Jedi any more - (considering what Kreia says if you meet up with the LS at Dantooine - and their actions - (Kavar did little to stop the Civil War, Zez didn't do anything in the refugee sector and Vrook was being his usual charming self). Atris has already fallen - and many think she died, so she cannot be considered a Jedi. All the others were in hiding - so the Exile was the last Jedi, in terms of being known. I don't consider it a plot hole as such, myself :xp:

TKA-001 09-01-2008 08:48 AM

I'll never understand the concept that being a Jedi has nothing to do with your actual affiliation with the organization.

jonathan7 09-01-2008 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2519318)
I'll never understand the concept that being a Jedi has nothing to do with your actual affiliation with the organization.

It is in action that one truly defines themselves and what they are - do they act out what they claim to be. I would argue, that most of the Jedi in TSL - do not act out what they claim to believe - (protecting the innocent etc), I hope that gives you some insight into my perspective :)

Corinthian 09-01-2008 10:33 AM

So, basically, all one has to do to become a Jedi is protect the innocent and stuff? Well, that changes a great deal.

Astor 09-01-2008 11:01 AM

I think that the actions of the Jedi in hiding in TSL are understandable, though.

How can they help the innocent when those innocents would just as soon turn on them for a bounty?

What are we going to do next? Criticise Yoda for going into hiding instead of throwing himself on Palpatine's blade?

It's pretty much the same situation, after all.

Burnseyy 09-01-2008 11:12 AM

Well a Jedi is supposed to protect.
If they don't protect anyone, they're not fulfilling the basic point of being a Jedi, and can't be called a true Jedi. They still technically are one, but if they hide, do nothing to help others, or stop the sith, then what good are that as a Jedi?

Obviously the sith saw this... and if Bastila hadn't done anything after four/five years (I think it is between K1 and K2) but fret about Revan, she's obviously not a threat.

jonathan7 09-01-2008 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine (Post 2519356)
What are we going to do next? Criticise Yoda for going into hiding instead of throwing himself on Palpatine's blade?

It's pretty much the same situation, after all.

Nah, you forget one key difference... Yoda is waiting for Luke to come to train him to take on the Empire... Vrook, Kavar and Zez are all just sat twiddling their thumbs for no reason - what was their grand plan? To hide and wait, and then hide and wait some more, while doing nothing about the suffering surrounding them. You could if you want covertly help those around you; especially on a place like Nah Shadaa.

TKA-001 09-01-2008 11:43 AM

Quote:

.. Vrook, Kavar and Zez are all just sat twiddling their thumbs for no reason
I've explained this before. If they drew attention to themselves, then they'd get killed by Sion, or more likely, Nihilus. Every time since the purge began that the Jedi showed themselves, they got wiped out and they didn't even know what was hunting them. What were they supposed to do?

Corinthian 09-01-2008 11:45 AM

No, Yoda failed because he decided that since he couldn't take the Emperor in single combat, he shouldn't do anything.

jonathan7 09-01-2008 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2519374)
I've explained this before. If they drew attention to themselves, then they'd get killed by Sion, or more likely, Nihilus. Every time since the purge began that the Jedi showed themselves, they got wiped out and they didn't even know what was hunting them. What were they supposed to do?

That was their explanation, but frankly the Exile pawns Sion in most meetings, so why fear him - and given they didn't know about Nihilus they should of taken the fight to him...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corinthian
No, Yoda failed because he decided that since he couldn't take the Emperor in single combat, he shouldn't do anything.

I was under the impression Palpatine could locate Yoda - and only couldn't because Yoda was next to a darkside Nexus on Dagobah - not that I don't agree with the sentiment.

Corinthian 09-01-2008 12:27 PM

Allegedly. It's never been clarified why Yoda went into hiding on Dagobah. The Thrawn Trilogy (Or is it the Duology? I forget.) suggests that the Dark Side Nexus was created while Yoda was hiding there, when a Bpfaashi Dark Jedi attacked Yoda and Jorj Car'das. Yoda, naturally, obliterated him.

jonathan7 09-01-2008 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corinthian (Post 2519391)
Allegedly. It's never been clarified why Yoda went into hiding on Dagobah. The Thrawn Trilogy (Or is it the Duology? I forget.) suggests that the Dark Side Nexus was created while Yoda was hiding there, when a Bpfaashi Dark Jedi attacked Yoda and Jorj Car'das. Yoda, naturally, obliterated him.

Hmm, from what I had read - I thought that had happened prior to the Clone Wars, so Yoda went to Dagobah, specifically because it had that Dark Side nexus - but that was probably from Wookiepedia, that I read that, so dunno how accurate it was.

Corinthian 09-01-2008 12:42 PM

Retcons ruin everything.

Ctrl Alt Del 09-01-2008 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burnseyy (Post 2519359)
Well a Jedi is supposed to protect.
If they don't protect anyone, they're not fulfilling the basic point of being a Jedi, and can't be called a true Jedi.

Allow me the cliché of saying that they can't protect anyone if they're dead. Unless on the force ghost shape, which I doubt it's of much use.

Besides, the Jedi who went into hiding never ceased to help people. Kavar helped the queen of Onderon to keep her throne, Zez would save people occasionally at Nar Shadaa, Kavar secretely aided administrator Adare on the construction of Khoonda and Vash, well, Vash died.

The Jedi seem uncapable of stay cloacked for much time.

Burnseyy 09-01-2008 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctrl Alt Del (Post 2519459)
Allow me the cliché of saying that they can't protect anyone if they're dead. Unless on the force ghost shape, which I doubt it's of much use.

Besides, the Jedi who went into hiding never ceased to help people. Kavar helped the queen of Onderon to keep her throne, Zez would save people occasionally at Nar Shadaa, Kavar secretely aided administrator Adare on the construction of Khoonda and Vash, well, Vash died.

The Jedi seem uncapable of stay cloacked for much time.

I'm not saying they didn't have the right idea... they may have helped on a small scale, but scattered and fearful of the sith, they weren't a threat.

That's all.

TKA-001 09-01-2008 02:25 PM

How is being scattered their fault?

Darth_Yuthura 09-01-2008 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctrl Alt Del (Post 2519459)
Allow me the cliché of saying that they can't protect anyone if they're dead. Unless on the force ghost shape, which I doubt it's of much use.

Besides, the Jedi who went into hiding never ceased to help people. Kavar helped the queen of Onderon to keep her throne, Zez would save people occasionally at Nar Shadaa, Kavar secretely aided administrator Adare on the construction of Khoonda and Vash, well, Vash died.

The Jedi seem uncapable of stay cloacked for much time.

Vrook was with Adare in Khoonda, but he didn't help her with the reconstruction. She was actually helping him to preserve the ruins of the enclave from the scavengers. He took the first chance he could to be captured and shipped out of that place, but got angry at the Exile for forcing him to help against the mercenaries.

ZKE was wise and all, but didn't help the Exile when she needed help the most. His intentions were well placed, but his actions were passive and provided few deeds for anyone other than jedi.

Ctrl Alt Del 09-01-2008 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burnseyy (Post 2519469)
scattered and fearful of the sith, they weren't a threat.

The Empire on the Old Trilogy knew better than take their chances with the handful of Jedi that remained, and yet Luke, who wasn't even a complete Jedi, killed the the Emperor.

jonathan7 09-01-2008 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctrl Alt Del (Post 2519473)
The Empire on the Old Trilogy knew better than take their chances with the handful of Jedi that remained, and yet Luke, who wasn't even a complete Jedi, killed the the Emperor.

Didn't Vader do that? :xp: Luke did defeat Vader though...

Burnseyy 09-01-2008 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001 (Post 2519471)
How is being scattered their fault?

I never said it was their fault.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctrl Alt Del (Post 2519473)
The Empire on the Old Trilogy knew better than take their chances with the handful of Jedi that remained, and yet Luke, who wasn't even a complete Jedi, killed the the Emperor.

If one of the Jedi Masters went to fight the sith, they'd likely end up like Vash. She'd been killed, hadn't she? Half of the council had perished on Katarr, hadn't they? The remaining Masters didn't want to reveal themselves to the enemy, and couldn't gather, or else they would run the risk of being targetted... like they were at the end, on Dantooine.

Luke stood up to his enemies, anyway.


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