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-   -   Palpatine: Order out of Chaos (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=196636)

Tysyacha 03-24-2009 11:41 AM

Palpatine: Order out of Chaos
 
OKAY, so we all know Senator Palpatine, also known as Lord Sidious, was the most evil character the Star Wars Galaxy had ever known...but why? What was the reasoning behind his schemes, his mass murders, his manipulations?

In my opinion, here's how and why Palpatine created Order out of Chaos:

Step One: He started and perpetuated the Clone Wars in order to pump up fear within the citizens of the galaxy. This is called the PROBLEM stage, because this is when the manipulator/puppetmaster creates a problem.

Step Two: The citizens of the galaxy, predictably, reacted with fear and bloodlust, going to war against the sentients they perceived to be the enemy. This is the REACTION stage, which Palpatine anticipated. He knew that everyone was so afraid and so worked up that they wouldn't mind if...

Step Three happened, which is when Palpatine provided a SOLUTION: the Empire. This is when he took over the galaxy in order to keep it SAFE. (not!)
You were only safe within the Empire if you did everything the Sith said.

How come no one saw this, had the foresight to know what was going on?

The beauty of the PROBLEM-REACTION-SOLUTION phenomenon is its subtlety. Palpatine didn't want anyone to suspect his true plans, so he imposed them gradually as time goes. Also, no one really suspects that wars or any other disasters are pre-planned, which made it all the much easier for Palpatine to conquer. Padme was starting to see it, but not completely. That, I think, is one of the reasons why Palpatine was glad that Padme died.

What was George Lucas trying to do by having Palpatine use this strategy instead of a BRUTE FORCE KILL KILL KILL strategy? It makes him more evil and more INsidious if he used the PROBLEM-REACTION-SOLUTION method.

Question: Does this phenomenon ever happen in THIS galaxy? If so, how?

Admiral_Thrawn 03-24-2009 12:46 PM

I believe that the phenomenon you stated is only part of his scheme's. For example, he commisioned an army of the Republic in a way with which he would be classified as the Supreme Commander. This meant that though the Jedi lead the army, he pulled the string's. Also your PROBLEM-REACTION-SOLUTION method is partly correct, though the solution is wrong. The solution was that he gained emergency power's and was enabled to stay in office.

During the Clone War's he; Created his own Empire, destroyed the Jedi Order, created his own grand army, gained an invaluable apprentice, allowed the Sith to again rise to power.

He had one grand plot with which all these mean's were accomplished, that is why he was succesful. In fact, the situation seemed only too natural. E.G: In a Republic there is a major war. The Prime Minister (Supreme Chancellor) is given extra power so that he may maintain order. Out of self-defense he comission's an army whom he hold's authority over. The peacekeeper's (Jedi) rebel however, forcing the Prime Minister's hand. He must act quickly to hold together the fractured Republic and so to ensure the Republic's survival he convert's the Republic into an Constitutional Monarchy.

Upon achieving the final 'natural' goal, the Prime Minister become's the Monarch, until order is restored. However, Palpatine altered this natural goal by altering his status to Absolute Monarchy. By the time this was done, however, there was none left to oppose him.

Tysyacha 03-24-2009 01:01 PM

Brilliant. *wink* Thank you for "filling in the missing links" which I suspected I had...:)

EnderWiggin 03-24-2009 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tysyacha (Post 2605387)
Brilliant. *wink* Thank you for "filling in the missing links" which I suspected I had...:)

Don't forget that he hatched this whole plan after killing his master while he slept.

_EW_

Admiral_Thrawn 03-24-2009 05:09 PM

Yeh, he's probaly the biggest super villain ever! Right next to 'Evil Penguin' of course. I have an entire book dedicated to that guy, boy is he a rotten one . . . :xp:

Lord of Hunger 03-24-2009 06:41 PM

Palpatine's scheme fed on sentiments that were already in place. A lot of worlds in the Republic (Core Worlds in particular) already had pro-imperial and anti-Jedi sentiments. In fact, I'm betting that a Galactic Empire was an inevitability minus Palpatine, although few would be better suited to run it than he was.

Also, Palpatine was indeed clever but his entire schemes rested on how moronic the Jedi were (c'mon, the Clone Army should have made the Jedi far more suspicious than they were). Had they any brains (let alone any Republic security ministry or such) he probably wouldn't have gotten as far as he did.

And yes, we saw something similar to this happen. It's called Nazi Germany.

Kj°len 03-24-2009 07:15 PM

Before Nazi Germany, we knew it as the Roman Empire.

mur'phon 03-25-2009 12:37 PM

The Russian apartment bombings commes to mind...

Darth Avlectus 04-12-2009 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tysyacha (Post 2605367)
Step One: He started and perpetuated the Clone Wars in order to pump up fear within the citizens of the galaxy. This is called the PROBLEM stage, because this is when the manipulator/puppetmaster creates a problem.

Step Two: The citizens of the galaxy, predictably, reacted with fear and bloodlust, going to war against the sentients they perceived to be the enemy. This is the REACTION stage, which Palpatine anticipated. He knew that everyone was so afraid and so worked up that they wouldn't mind if...

Step Three happened, which is when Palpatine provided a SOLUTION: the Empire. This is when he took over the galaxy in order to keep it SAFE. (not!)
You were only safe within the Empire if you did everything the Sith said.

How come no one saw this, had the foresight to know what was going on?

Thing about it is, this was simply the final, brilliant execution of centuries, nay a millenium, worth of scheming and planning. So you'd have to take a step back and look first at the foundation from which Palptine had worked. It had been carefully and secretly built up by sith lords past. He was simply the culmination.

It does beg several questions:
Would Palpatine have been nearly as able to do what he did by himself and without the prior generations' work?

Was the thousand years of the republic that stood peacefully, since the 7th war of Ruusan, merely an illusion? (I have sources that implicitly say yes it was, to a certain extent)
===========
People DID see it, and ultimately did/could do NOTHING about it.

Show spoiler


Bail was in a tough spot because he and Mon Mothma KNEW what was happening after that point but did not know just how deep it ran.

Show spoiler

======================
Quote:

The beauty of the PROBLEM-REACTION-SOLUTION phenomenon is its subtlety.
You are actually SOOOOOO dead on it isn't funny. Can I assume you know of the sith order's foundation? Where it traces back to?

Quote:

Palpatine didn't want anyone to suspect his true plans, so he imposed them gradually as time goes. Also, no one really suspects that wars or any other disasters are pre-planned, which made it all the much easier for Palpatine to conquer. Padme was starting to see it, but not completely. That, I think, is one of the reasons why Palpatine was glad that Padme died.
OF a great many.

It wasn't just a simple matter of planning.

Quote:

What was George Lucas trying to do by having Palpatine use this strategy instead of a BRUTE FORCE KILL KILL KILL strategy? It makes him more evil and more INsidious if he used the PROBLEM-REACTION-SOLUTION method.

Question: Does this phenomenon ever happen in THIS galaxy? If so, how?
All the time I suspect. How? Secrecy, subtlety, cunning. Too often strength and power are confused with one another. Strength is in the physical realm. Brutality. Could be in other aspects, but not too many. Power...lies not only in physical, but in all other aspects as well.

This is off of memory or lack thereof:
As a eugenecist by the name of Oswald said in 1962, if I'm not mistaken:
"People can be made to love their servitude; they can be made to love their leaders; to be made to love a life with conditions that by any decent standard of measure ought not to". Think about that. Also he continues, "People, the human race, can be conditioned and made to see persuasion. If not persuaded by force, then by consent." I'll let you ponder on this.

Creating a problem out of the light that you solve in the light (the light being that of the public eye), is a machination used on all levels. Obviously if the cover is blown early on, the whole thing is for naught. Sometimes, the best cover is also right in plain sight. Such things take time and planning. Patience. Inevitably, risk as well. You see this every day on petty scales. However, it gets bigger than that. The bigger it is, the more devastating the effect. Palpatine knew it took many small steps to make the large leap of defeating the Jedi and ruling the galaxy.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Admiral_Thrawn (Post 2605380)
I believe that the phenomenon you stated is only part of his scheme's. For example, he commisioned an army of the Republic in a way with which he would be classified as the Supreme Commander. This meant that though the Jedi lead the army, he pulled the string's. Also your PROBLEM-REACTION-SOLUTION method is partly correct, though the solution is wrong. The solution was that he gained emergency power's and was enabled to stay in office.

During the Clone War's he; Created his own Empire, destroyed the Jedi Order, created his own grand army, gained an invaluable apprentice, allowed the Sith to again rise to power.

He had one grand plot with which all these mean's were accomplished, that is why he was succesful. In fact, the situation seemed only too natural. E.G: In a Republic there is a major war. The Prime Minister (Supreme Chancellor) is given extra power so that he may maintain order. Out of self-defense he comission's an army whom he hold's authority over. The peacekeeper's (Jedi) rebel however, forcing the Prime Minister's hand. He must act quickly to hold together the fractured Republic and so to ensure the Republic's survival he convert's the Republic into an Constitutional Monarchy.

Upon achieving the final 'natural' goal, the Prime Minister become's the Monarch, until order is restored. However, Palpatine altered this natural goal by altering his status to Absolute Monarchy. By the time this was done, however, there was none left to oppose him.

There were some but it was insignificant for a time. He planned to eliminate all naysay. While Bail Organa seemed powerless, in secrecy, too, was he putting together a foundation as he saw all of this happening.

When it became apparent that Bail Organa might threaten his plans, Palpatine, and his apprentice Vader, set to work to eliminate Organa and any others associated. This didn't work out, though. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger (Post 2605548)
Palpatine's scheme fed on sentiments that were already in place. A lot of worlds in the Republic (Core Worlds in particular) already had pro-imperial and anti-Jedi sentiments.

There is natural mentality. However, could it have been fostered in a way, (attracted or lead in a certain direction)? I do believe this was the case. That the sentiment was "farmed" and it was being done right in the back yard of the republic.

Obi Wan said: "I have observed that Chancellor Palpatine is very clever at following the passions and prejudices of the senators." It takes a certain level of charisma to do that, does it not?

Quote:

In fact, I'm betting that a Galactic Empire was an inevitability minus Palpatine, although few would be better suited to run it than he was.
Or would it have been a return to a more chaotic, destructive mode of conflict on a regular basis like in times past?

Quote:

Also, Palpatine was indeed clever but his entire schemes rested on how moronic the Jedi were (c'mon, the Clone Army should have made the Jedi far more suspicious than they were). Had they any brains (let alone any Republic security ministry or such) he probably wouldn't have gotten as far as he did.
True. OR the clever were just simply too proud and arrogant to admit what was going on? That what they saw and sensed actually did deserve reexamination? Hint: Count Dooku...

BTW: Is Hitler the only similarity in real life that we have to go on?


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