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kirk_is_pwn 03-27-2009 01:12 AM

The Origin Of The Universe
 
An open debate as to whether the universe was designed by an intelligent creator or came about by some other means.

I'd really appreciate no insulting. And this is open for any theory as to the origin of this universe. :-)

SkinWalker 03-27-2009 01:15 AM

What good reason would there be to believe that the universe was created by a deity?

kirk_is_pwn 03-27-2009 01:18 AM

Well, there is a lot of evidence that points towards intelligent design. Such as the breakdown of the steady state theory and big bang theory.

M@RS 03-27-2009 01:20 AM

You just lit a fuse... :xp: I'm on the side of creation, but last time I didn't do so well... Good luck to you... :)

kirk_is_pwn 03-27-2009 01:23 AM

Well, thank you sir. I appreciate that.

SkinWalker 03-27-2009 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk_is_pwn (Post 2606825)
Well, there is a lot of evidence that points towards intelligent design. Such as the breakdown of the steady state theory and big bang theory.

I'm not an expert in either, so perhaps you can cite the peer reviewed literature that explains how these theories are no longer viable? Indeed, even if both theories were completely discarded, this in no way provides evidence for "intelligent" design.

What evidence can you cite for "intelligent" design?

Tommycat 03-27-2009 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkinWalker (Post 2606840)
I'm not an expert in either, so perhaps you can cite the peer reviewed literature that explains how these theories are no longer viable? Indeed, even if both theories were completely discarded, this in no way provides evidence for "intelligent" design.

What evidence can you cite for "intelligent" design?

Actually, neither has been dismissed entirely. That's what the LHC was built for.

kirk_is_pwn 03-27-2009 09:40 AM

Let me explain. The big bang theory suggests that the universe began in a very dense, very hot state. It also states that this very dense hot state was contained in an infinitly dense point. But to be infinitly dense it would have to be non-existant. So already we understand that the point had to be put there if this theory were truth. And this leads to the question of how did this point get there? And because we know from the laws of physics that matter can not be created nor destroyed, something outside the physical laws of the universe had to start it. Natural laws and forces could not have caused the big bang since the big bang states that all matter, time, space, and physical laws started at the initial explosion. Also the big bang is said to have been an explosion. Explosions do not bring order and if an explosion was to bring order, then there must have been a reason behind the explosion. And a bunch of nothing and chance can't make a choice. Chance can't be a cause.

Now for the steady state theory, this theory suggests that the universe is infinite. That it is steadily expanding in all directions and always will. The problem with this theory is if the universe is in a state of expansion, it would need to create more matter to sustain itself. And by physics (matter can not be created nor destroyed) we know this is impossible. And also the law of entropy tells us that the universe is winding down, in order for something to wind down it had to be wound up. Now for the theory to be true matter would always have to be created, the only logical route for one to take on the creating of matter would be something supernatural. Something that is NOT hindered by the natural laws of the universe. Something outside of time, space, and matter.

RoxStar 03-27-2009 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk_is_pwn (Post 2606945)
Let me explain. The big bang theory suggests that the universe began in a very dense, very hot state. It also states that this very dense hot state was contained in an infinitly dense point. But to be infinitly dense it would have to be non-existant. So already we understand that the point had to be put there if this theory were truth. And this leads to the question of how did this point get there?

The Big Bang theory hinges on the fact that our universe is constantly expanding outward infinitesimally. Logically, if the universe is expanding outward, it had to come from somewhere, aka "the center". That's where the "Big Bang" comes from. You must remember that this "point" you are referring too is also infinitesimally small, so small one can't even really describe it. To say it "came" from somewhere is misleading as it is impossible to perceive.

Tommycat 03-27-2009 10:01 AM

Actually, the universe is my thing. I have a few theories of my own, but I'll leave them for some other point.

The answer to your question is simple. If a being such as God can exist before the creation of the universe, why is it so impossible to believe that matter which is tangible can exist before the universe was created.

An alternate explanation is that(as has been observed) in intense vacuum subatomic particles have been formed.

My personal theory is that the matter exists because the universe once it reaches it's furthest point begins to colapse in on itself as supermassive black holes(like the one in the center of the Milky Way) enter into their feeding cycles(hey don't laugh that was how the prof explained t to me). Then the whole process starts over for the next universe... it just takes a while...

Ray Jones 03-27-2009 11:22 AM

The universe is not the end, just as the origin of the universe is not the beginning. Created or not, what does it matter, when the real question is "how?"

kirk_is_pwn 03-30-2009 05:40 PM

well because the big bang states that when it took place that all natural things such as matter, time, space, and physical laws were created. matter cant be created nor destroyed according to the physical laws of the universe. God is immaterial, and also outside of time and space.

Achilles 03-30-2009 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk_is_pwn (Post 2608521)
matter cant be created nor destroyed according to the physical laws of the universe.

Which law is this?

I think that if you go back and re-read the law you think you're citing, you may find that it actually says something different.

Hint: if matter can become energy and vice versa, then it would seem that one could argue that there was a tremendous amount of energy released during the big bang and then look for evidence that would support this. If one were to then happen upon something like, oh say, cosmic microwave background radiation, then it would do much to bolster confidence in such a hypothesis.

If I may suggest some materials which might help to shed some light on the subject:

The Big Bang and Cosmic Microwave Background
More Evidence for the Big Bang

You can either listen to the podcast (IIRC, they run about 30 minutes each), or just read the transcripts. I really do think these will answer just about any question you could have about the big bang.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk_is_pwn (Post 2608521)
God is immaterial, and also outside of time and space.

Ok. How do we know this though?

And if god gets to be immaterial, outside of time and space, then we get to extend that same argument to whatever conditions might have been necessary for the big bang. Lest we be guilt of special pleading.

Thanks for your post.

Astor 03-31-2009 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk_is_pwn (Post 2608521)
God is immaterial, and also outside of time and space.

But, isn't that against the hallowed physical laws of the universe?

Ray Jones 03-31-2009 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk_is_pwn (Post 2608521)
well because the big bang states that when it took place that all natural things such as matter, time, space, and physical laws were created.

No. It was all there already.

Quote:

matter cant be created nor destroyed according to the physical laws of the universe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy. I think you mix things up a bit.

Quote:

God is immaterial, and also outside of time and space.
It would be quite surprising if you show me something immaterial inside time and space, or vice versa. Since the material is defined through time and space your argument is a pleonasm at best. .

GarfieldJL 03-31-2009 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Jones (Post 2608951)
No. It was all there already.

There is evidence to suggest the big bang did occur.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Jones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy. I think you mix things up a bit.

You both have it wrong, mass and energy can be swapped with each other.

E=mc^2

However, there are some things where the laws of physics tend to break down, such as a quantum singularity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Jones
It would be quite surprising if you show me something immaterial inside time and space, or vice versa. Since the material is defined through time and space your argument is a pleonasm at best. .

How about Dark Matter and Dark Energy, I couldn't show you either of those in real life yet both are argued by scientists to exist. Just because you can't see something or readily observe something does not mean it doesn't exist.

SkinWalker 03-31-2009 07:51 PM

Dark matter and energy can both be seen mathematically, which is why they are argued to exist. Indeed, they are referred to as "dark" because they only show up in the maths. So far.

Ray Jones 04-01-2009 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarfieldJL (Post 2609037)
There is evidence to suggest the big bang did occur.

But I didn't say it didn't occur?


Quote:

You both have it wrong, mass and energy can be swapped with each other.

E=mc^2

However, there are some things where the laws of physics tend to break down, such as a quantum singularity.
But I didn't say it couldn't be swapped?


Quote:

How about Dark Matter and Dark Energy, I couldn't show you either of those in real life yet both are argued by scientists to exist. Just because you can't see something or readily observe something does not mean it doesn't exist.
Huh?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...darkmatter.jpg
"Composite image of the Bullet cluster shows distribution of ordinary matter, inferred from X-ray emissions, in red and total mass, inferred from gravitational lensing, in blue."


Quote:

The first person to provide evidence and infer the existence of a phenomenon that has come to be called "dark matter" was Swiss astrophysicist Fritz Zwicky, of the California Institute of Technology in 1933. He applied the virial theorem to the Coma cluster of galaxies and obtained evidence of unseen mass. Zwicky estimated the cluster's total mass based on the motions of galaxies near its edge. When he compared this mass estimate to one based on the number of galaxies and total brightness of the cluster, he found that there was about 400 times more mass than expected. The gravity of the visible galaxies in the cluster would be far too small for such fast orbits, so something extra was required. This is known as the "missing mass problem". Based on these conclusions, Zwicky inferred that there must be some non-visible form of matter which would provide enough of the mass and gravity to hold the cluster together.
[...]
Eventually other astronomers began to corroborate her work and it soon became well-established that most galaxies were in fact dominated by "dark matter"; exceptions appeared to be galaxies with mass-to-light ratios close to that of stars. Subsequent to this, numerous observations have been made that do indicate the presence of dark matter in various parts of the cosmos. Together with Rubin's findings for spiral galaxies and Zwicky's work on galaxy clusters, the observational evidence for dark matter has been collecting over the decades to the point that today most astrophysicists accept its existence. As a unifying concept, dark matter is one of the dominant features considered in the analysis of structures on the order of galactic scale and larger.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_ma...ional_evidence


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