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-   -   Are you getting the flu shots? (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=201265)

Jae Onasi 10-29-2009 01:22 PM

Are you getting the flu shots?
 
There is some controversy about whether one should get vaccinated or not, sort of brought to the forefront by Brent Spiner's tweets yesterday. There are the "Pro-vaxx" people who think you should have every vaccine no matter what. Then there are the "anti-vaxx" people who think vaccines are more detrimental than good, or are just a tool for drug companies to make more money. I'm not up to doing a ton of research at the moment, but I did want to discuss the subject.

Here are my thoughts--there are definite benefits to vaccines for many people. Diphtheria, tetanus, and polio can kill or seriously impair people, so I think it's wise to vaccinate for that. If boys or men contract measles after a certain age, it can make them infertile, so it's wise for them to get a measles vaccine prior to that cut-off age. There are also concerns about having so many vaccines in a very short time as a young child. There were questions about whether the vaccines increased the risk of autism--I did read a research study recently showing there is no connection between vaccinations and autism, happily. People who are allergic to eggs or the preservatives used in the vaccines are not able to get them. There are some other contraindications for vaccines and flu shots, too many to list here.

My thoughts--they are generally beneficial, but not for everyone. Now, if an individual personally has a high risk for severe complications from flu, such as severe asthma or heart disease, or there is someone in the family who has heart disease or is on chemo and getting flu could be life-threatening, then getting the flu shot is likely to be very beneficial. If someone has an allergy, then it may be detrimental. However, this is something that should be researched carefully, and then each individual should talk to their own health care provider about their individual situations to make a wise choice on the matter, instead of just deciding based on what they read on (hopefully reputable) websites. It's so much more complex than a simple yes/no answer.

Astor 10-29-2009 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
It's so much more complex than a simple yes/no answer.

Definitely.

They've just started to roll out the vaccination program for Swine Flu here in the UK, and 'high-risk' people are being asked whether they want the vaccine or not. My sister, who is currently expecting her first child, is expecting a call sometime next week about it.

So far, she's flatly refused to even consider have the vaccine. Mainly because she doesn't feel it's been tested as thoroughly as it should be. I can understand her concerns, but I think that it might be wise to at least consider the vaccine, even if it's after a little more testing.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with having any vaccines (having overcome my chronic fear of injections and needles over the past few years) - I've been immunised as a child for all sorts of things, even at a time when there were massive scares in the UK regarding the MMR jab.

The problem is that even if research proves there's no connection between autism and a vaccine, many parents are inevitably, and perhaps understandably, make that connection, and blame the jab.

Anyways, i'm personally of the opinion that they are ultimately beneficial, and can go a long way in saving lives, but I do feel that it's ultimately the individuals (or parents) decision as to whether or not they get vaccines or not.

Jae Onasi 10-29-2009 05:27 PM

They're recommending that expectant women get the swine flu vaccine because it's hitting young people (particularly 20 and 30 year olds) so hard. There was a pregnant woman in Chicago who died last spring from the swine flu, and the baby was too young to even be delivered. The autism concern is due to the thimerosal used to preserve many of the vaccines and getting the shots as babies, but this doesn't apply to fetuses. It's a danger to the fetus when mom gets a fever above 101 F regardless of the reason (flu, bacterial infection, etc), and this flu is causing people to get fevers in the 103F range, another good reason for pregnant women to get the shot.

Barring any other health issues that any pregnant woman might have, it seems to me the benefits of getting the swine flu/H1N1 shot (not getting sick with a flu that can kill a young person, not getting a fever so high it can cause damage to the baby) outweigh the risks. I have a contact allergy to thimerosal (a preservative in many flu shots), and if I were pregnant I might take an anti-allergy med in order to take the swine flu shot to decrease the risk of high fever. I would urge all pregnant women to discuss this issue and their concerns/specific health issues with their OB/midwife as soon as possible. I'm a big proponent of limiting medications to the minimum necessary during pregnancy, but if I were pregnant the H1N1 shot would be on my list of shots to get. There has been a lot of testing done on the shot in the US and around the world, so I'm comfortable with it in this situation.

Trench 10-29-2009 05:35 PM

I won't do it. :carms:

Litofsky 10-29-2009 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Te Mirdala Mand'alor (Post 2684455)
I won't do it. :carms:

Why not?

Personally, I'd highly consider getting the vaccine. At school, there haven't been any form of mass-sickness, but people drop out for three to four days at a time sick with the flu. It's nothing major, but still enough to warrant concern...

...especially considering that I've been the neurotic state of mind drilled into me since I was able to wash my hands. But that's just my knee-jerk reaction to seeing many of my friends out of school for a good chunk of a week.

Overall, I'd much prefer that the vaccine be tested out some more, but, considering that I've got my eighty year old grandparents staying with my family currently, I don't want to do anything to put them at risk.

Q 10-29-2009 07:46 PM

How much will it cost?

Now I rarely get sick, but my sister, brother-in-law and all three of their kids came down with the swine flu and contracted pneumonia as a result. I've had pneumonia before, and, while the hallucinations were cool (fever of 104+), I really wouldn't want to repeat the experience.

Darth Avlectus 10-29-2009 07:56 PM

@ question posed by thread: Uhh, NO.

Funny thing is this: when I was little (Shut up, I'm not an antique!) there was no need for flu shots and vaccines. It was thought of as a "tougher ailment" than the usual and requiring more care than such.

While it _is_ unpleasant and knocks one for a loop upon being under its spell, some common sense and concerted efforts in the preventative and recuperative steps you can take would go a long way.

In a way, facing these ailments down over time actually strengthens your immunity. Or so I thought. I always noticed how all these "health nut" people who go to great lengths that are OC to borderline ridiculous to avoid getting sick always get hit the worst. Remembering how my family was poor I often had to tough it through but as I got to my teens I was rarely sick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi (Post 2684412)
There is some controversy about whether one should get vaccinated or not, sort of brought to the forefront by Brent Spiner's tweets yesterday. There are the "Pro-vaxx" people who think you should have every vaccine no matter what. Then there are the "anti-vaxx" people who think vaccines are more detrimental than good, or are just a tool for drug companies to make more money. I'm not up to doing a ton of research at the moment, but I did want to discuss the subject.

Here are my thoughts--there are definite benefits to vaccines for many people. Diphtheria, tetanus, and polio can kill or seriously impair people, so I think it's wise to vaccinate for that.

Depends on the disease being vaccinated against. Some it may be a good idea and others it's ridiculous.

Quote:

If boys or men contract measles after a certain age, it can make them infertile, so it's wise for them to get a measles vaccine prior to that cut-off age. There are also concerns about having so many vaccines in a very short time as a young child. There were questions about whether the vaccines increased the risk of autism--I did read a research study recently showing there is no connection between vaccinations and autism, happily.
People who are allergic to eggs or the preservatives used in the vaccines are not able to get them. There are some other contraindications for vaccines and flu shots, too many to list here.
Well, I don't think it is necessary to get the WHOLE series of shots ALL AT ONCE. When I was a kid there was far fewer shots needed as compared to now. Seeing ~13 shots of that for me, now I see ~30 shots. It does raise some eyebrows as well as questions.

Quote:

My thoughts--they are generally beneficial, but not for everyone. Now, if an individual personally has a high risk for severe complications from flu, such as severe asthma or heart disease, or there is someone in the family who has heart disease or is on chemo and getting flu could be life-threatening, then getting the flu shot is likely to be very beneficial. If someone has an allergy, then it may be detrimental. However, this is something that should be researched carefully, and then each individual should talk to their own health care provider about their individual situations to make a wise choice on the matter, instead of just deciding based on what they read on (hopefully reputable) websites. It's so much more complex than a simple yes/no answer.
I agree people ought to do their own research. I do not like how there is a push "Gotta get them all and do it all NOW!". Not only for the $$$ involved, but potential detriments.

Disproving autism link notwithstanding, I do happen to know that while mercury is a superior suspension agent it also tends to accumulate in the body and not "pass through". Supposedly the amount is negligible in shots but I wonder still, why not any research to come up with a different and comparable suspension agent so that we do not have to walk that line?

I am not anti vax, but when health providers tend to get defensive at questioning (and interest in investigating) how much is actually in the shots being given, it tends to make the skeptics (like myself) not trust them. If there is nothing to hide, why get defensive? So they want investigations ad nauseum? So Effing whuttt? Such vigilance of people looking out for the best interests of their own health ought to be rewarded.

Personally I'd like to put my size 10 extra wide up Dr Dean Edell's hindquarters b/c I think he has sold out to the pharmaceuticals and bashes people who DARE question such things and tend to remain skeptical even afterwards.
(Red Foreman would be proud. :smirk2:)

If we have proactive doctors who want to protect their clients and take a sample of vaccine shipments to test the amount of mercury inside them against the gov.t's outlined "safe" level--more power to them. :carms: Consumer advocacy, and I stand firm on that.

Side note: not that there is a connection like in the 1934 film "tomorrow's children", I do not want it to reach a point of *mandatory* vaccination. Currently you have the choice no vaccination means you don't go to public schools. (Not that I abhor that exclusion since the public school system out here SUCKS.) I also look at how CA has recently made some laws about homeschool being only taught by licensed people with degrees. Fine, quality control. However, when it starts, in a word, relegating private school like it does public school to bring it down to the same level (thus pointless), I'm a start raising hell about it.

Hallucination 10-29-2009 09:08 PM

My parents tried to get me the shots, but I caught on and didn't follow them behind the barn.

On a serious note, I should be getting the opportunity for the shots in the next week or two, I guess I'll be getting one. I just hope my jokes about us regular students being used as guinea pigs for my school's nursing students aren't right. :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Q (Post 2684490)
the hallucinations were cool

Thanks. o_Q

Web Rider 10-29-2009 10:27 PM

I already got the flu. No need for the shot now.

Darth Avlectus 10-30-2009 04:51 PM

^^^Sensible indeed. That's what I'm talking about. May not have been pleasant, but...web ain't dead.

jawathehutt 10-30-2009 06:08 PM

I got a flu shot and I plan on getting a swine flu shot too. I live in a dorm which means if one person near me gets it, chances are I'll end up with it too, and I would really rather not loose a weekend to being sick. True there might be negative side effects that affect some people, but if we're going to be avoiding everything potentially dangerous we might as well just live in bubbles and think happy thoughts.

Web Rider 10-31-2009 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity (Post 2684689)
^^^Sensible indeed. That's what I'm talking about. May not have been pleasant, but...web ain't dead.

Bingo. Plus, when you get the shot, you run the risk of getting sick anyway! So, if you're fairly healthy, you can just hang around some sick people. If you're not healthy then the shot is still better, but you still run that risk.

Drunkside 10-31-2009 08:34 AM

You talking about piggy flu or the normal flu? Anyways i already took the shot for the basic seasonal flu and i will take the swine flu shot as well next week. Cause i have a serious asthma(swine flu can cause lung failure) and im in a school that has bad air which has even made my cronical illness worse. And its free here.

I possibly had swine flu already actually, i just didnt go see a doctor until the actual disease was over and i was being tormented by several sequelas. I was completely inflamed exept for the eyes :xp:

Allronix 10-31-2009 06:13 PM

I get 'em every year, and plan on getting the swine flu shot, too. No sense in getting sick if you don't have to. I never feel like I can afford to be sick, what with employers looking for reasons to toss you back in unemployment. That, and I am a "frequent flier" at the blood center (donating platelets twice a month), so I don't want to run risks of getting other people sick.

JediAthos 11-01-2009 12:31 AM

When I was in the military they used to make us get them, and then at some point they stopped and I haven't gotten one since. Now, I do work for a healthcare company and spend a great deal of time in hospitals so I may end up getting one if the company deems it necessary otherwise probably not.

My wife has already gotten my children vaccinated(regular old flu shot) and the only thing they've come down with is a runny nose.

urluckyday 11-01-2009 01:22 PM

Seasonal flu shot, no.

Swine flu shot (when available), yes.

I really am not afraid of getting sick and dying from the H1N1, but I do think that it's important that I get so that I don't get sick during the school year b/c I hate missing time. Also, I think if we get the vaccine for it, it won't be such a big problem that a normal "pandemic" might create.

Web Rider 11-02-2009 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drunkside (Post 2684810)
You talking about piggy flu or the normal flu? Anyways i already took the shot for the basic seasonal flu and i will take the swine flu shot as well next week. Cause i have a serious asthma(swine flu can cause lung failure) and im in a school that has bad air which has even made my cronical illness worse. And its free here.

A professor here at our school dies from it because he had asthma and got complications and got pneumonia as well. Poor guy.

El Sitherino 11-02-2009 02:13 AM

I'll probably be getting one compliments of the United State military service, however I'd probably otherwise not bother only on the basis that I take good care of my health. Vaccines are a tricky part of health care, on one hand it's necessary for a majority of people to get them simply based on the fact that people rarely take good care of themselves when otherwise "healthy"; poor diets, little rest, abusive intake of toxins. As well, especially in the US, we have few preventative measures set up to help cull an infestation. Office buildings have poor circulation systems and with office daycare facilities decidedly understaffed the whole thing can just lead to a big mess. Mostly likely not a pandemic like everyone in the media was quick to jump to early on, but it could easily knock out several corporate stations for a few good months.

So, yeah I'd say 3/5 of all people should get it just because I can't trust them to take proper care of themselves, the others are reasonable enough to rest up and get proper fluids. Not to mention the difference in ability to care for oneself between rich and poor, so vaccinate the poor: mandatory.

ForeverNight 11-02-2009 08:25 AM

That problem then comes down to are we going to let the poor make any decisions on their own? Or is everything going to be mandatory for them if the government decides it's in their 'best interests'?

While I have zero problem with trying to help take care of the poor, how long until it spills over from there? And are they going to get any choices regarding anything that may be detrimental to them? And how long until the government decides to do the same to more.

Anyway since I'm running late to class I'll answer the original questions and run.

Yes, but only regular flu not swine.

Drunkside 11-02-2009 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Web Rider (Post 2685203)
A professor here at our school dies from it because he had asthma and got complications and got pneumonia as well. Poor guy.

Yes... Exactly the thing i want to avoid. Dying... Well lets just say that i do not intend to do it for maaaany decades :xp: We here in finland just got our first death a couple of days ago, and the woman died of lung failure (at least thats what i heard).

Qui-Gon Glenn 11-03-2009 09:12 PM

People have died from vaccinations. Google it, there are too many sources.

I think the responsible thing of healthy, young to middle-aged adults is to ignore any and all vaccinations. Then again, I only take ibuprofen or acetaminophen when I am doubled over in pain. I only go to the doctor for a cold when I am thinking, "well, this actually might kill me."

Why? Because I am old-fashioned, and because I have serious reservations about modern medicine and chemical dependency, weakened natural immunities due to excessive consumption of antibiotics, and am generally not affluent enough to throw money at an illness when time will take care of it.

For the very young or the very old, I think it is something that deserves consideration. For the chronically ill, I have reservations (as I think that overmedication has contributed to your condition) yet still think it could be a reasonable course of action. For the healthy 37 year olds like me, tough it out.

Web Rider 11-04-2009 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qui_gon_glenn (Post 2685649)
People have died from vaccinations. Google it, there are too many sources.

Yes, one or two out of several million who have taken them. Some lied about their health when given the vaccination. Also, don't lump "vaccinations" into one big category. You cannot say that vaccinating someone for smallpox is the same as vaccinating someone for the flu. As well you cannot lump poorly done vaccinations in dirty hospitals in the middle of the Congo with vaccinations done in western states with high health standards.

Quote:

I think the responsible thing of healthy, young to middle-aged adults is to ignore any and all vaccinations. Then again, I only take ibuprofen or acetaminophen when I am doubled over in pain. I only go to the doctor for a cold when I am thinking, "well, this actually might kill me."
No, because what that will do is make Young Adult A get "The Horrible Disease" and if they live, become immune to it. However, now they can carry it without getting sick. Meaning Person B who has never been exposed to it will get sick, and probably die. Not getting vaccinations leads to epidemics in cultures that have vaccinations. Additionally, you risk spreading not just simple diseases like the flu, but serious, lethal diseases that WILL kill. Not might, not may, but WILL. You risk another pandemic on the scale of the Black Plague if you think everyone should be going "commando" about it.

Quote:

Why? Because I am old-fashioned, and because I have serious reservations about modern medicine and chemical dependency, weakened natural immunities due to excessive consumption of antibiotics, and am generally not affluent enough to throw money at an illness when time will take care of it.
"Old Fashioned" medicine saved your "modern" butt. Sorry to be blunt, but don't act like "modern medicine" is something that has been invented in the last 30 years, and it's the downfall of mankind. Vaccinations have been going on for over a hundred years, if often poorly and fairly slipshod. Yes, ANYTHING in excess is bad, killing 99.9% of germs is bad when you expose children to more bleach than bacteria. But getting vaccinated kills or injues only a very very tiny fraction of people. FAR less than would die without it.

Quote:

For the very young or the very old, I think it is something that deserves consideration. For the chronically ill, I have reservations (as I think that overmedication has contributed to your condition) yet still think it could be a reasonable course of action. For the healthy 37 year olds like me, tough it out.
Yes, because of course, the deterioration of the brain due to a genetic condition documented to have existed well before "modern medicine" is caused by "over medication". There are lots of people who follow your line of thought, but you don't hear about them because they stay healthy. The fact that they carry a debilitating genetic condition that will cause the body to turn into pudding in the last years of their life is not the result of them popping prozac every day.

Qui-Gon Glenn 11-04-2009 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Web Rider (Post 2685696)
No, because what that will do is make Young Adult A get "The Horrible Disease" and if they live, become immune to it. However, now they can carry it without getting sick. Meaning Person B who has never been exposed to it will get sick, and probably die. Not getting vaccinations leads to epidemics in cultures that have vaccinations. Additionally, you risk spreading not just simple diseases like the flu, but serious, lethal diseases that WILL kill. Not might, not may, but WILL. You risk another pandemic on the scale of the Black Plague if you think everyone should be going "commando" about it.

Uh, the OP was referring to flu shots, WR, not epidemic diseases. I was vaccinated for all the usual "horrible" diseases as a child, just like you. Modern medicine wants to vaccinate us for far more than that, and for what reason? Health of the populace or profit? And, if you had at all read my post without merely quoting it all in lumps, you may have noticed I advocate vaccinating children and the elderly, if that is what their doctor advocates. The only person going commando is you.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Web Rider (Post 2685696)
"Old Fashioned" medicine saved your "modern" butt. Sorry to be blunt, but don't act like "modern medicine" is something that has been invented in the last 30 years, and it's the downfall of mankind. Vaccinations have been going on for over a hundred years, if often poorly and fairly slipshod. Yes, ANYTHING in excess is bad, killing 99.9% of germs is bad when you expose children to more bleach than bacteria. But getting vaccinated kills or injues only a very very tiny fraction of people. FAR less than would die without it.

Thank god my modern butt was vaccinated for polio. Thank god my modern butt has not been vaccinated with flu vaccines that have been tested for, hmm, how long, since the latest variety was identified. Clinically, how can anyone feel confident in the testing done on these vaccines, and I wonder (not being a doctor, developer or at all affiliated with the field) who were the poor test subjects... and if they were human at all. Again, harp on the giant diseases all you want, it is clear in my post that those were not what I was referring to. Completely off-topic rubbish.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Web Rider (Post 2685696)
Yes, because of course, the deterioration of the brain due to a genetic condition documented to have existed well before "modern medicine" is caused by "over medication". There are lots of people who follow your line of thought, but you don't hear about them because they stay healthy. The fact that they carry a debilitating genetic condition that will cause the body to turn into pudding in the last years of their life is not the result of them popping prozac every day.

God I wish I knew what you are talking about?!? How did Alzheimer's, if that is your reference, get brought into this? I was perhaps not specific enough in what you were referring to in my post for this portion... I was mostly talking about the over-prescription of antibiotics and the resultant resistant strains of bacteria.

I understand your POV, but not your off-topicness or the vitriol within which it was packaged. But thank you for your post.

Jae Onasi 11-04-2009 03:21 PM

Wow, who knew flu shots could get this hot? Tone it down please, loves. The Real World Germs are beating hard enough on us as it is without us beating on each other on top of it. Thanks.

Web Rider 11-14-2009 12:47 AM

Speaking of H1N1, I saw a commercial a few seconds ago for Lysol, and it mentioned a "resurgence" of H1N1. As far as I was aware, we were still in the first flu season in which it appeared, and it had no point gone away, only to come back again. Is this simple TV advert fearmongering or is there some scientific backing to this statement?

Tommycat 11-14-2009 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Web Rider (Post 2687753)
Speaking of H1N1, I saw a commercial a few seconds ago for Lysol, and it mentioned a "resurgence" of H1N1. As far as I was aware, we were still in the first flu season in which it appeared, and it had no point gone away, only to come back again. Is this simple TV advert fearmongering or is there some scientific backing to this statement?

it's an ad. do you really have to ask that?

Darth333 11-14-2009 01:16 AM

Meh I already got the H1n1 flu...apparently I'm now immunized so I won't be getting the shot. I any event it' s been by far the less severe flu I had in many years symptom-wise.


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