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-   -   Ft. Hood shooting (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=201379)

Jae Onasi 11-05-2009 04:37 PM

Ft. Hood shooting
 
Breaking news, subject to change.
Please pray for the soldiers and families in Ft. Hood, in TX. 2 or 3 gunmen in military garb--turns out they were soldiers--came on base and started shooting in the Soldier Readiness Processing Center. According to news I heard on WGN radio, there are at least 12 dead, 31 wounded. One of the shooters is dead, killed by one of the on-post police force. One of the members of the Ft. Hood Civilian Police was killed in the shooting. Two additional suspects are in custody now. The base is on lockdown so it's hard to get any information right now. The Killene school district is on lockdown, but apparently schools have NOT been hit, and they've been locked down so no one can get in or out, either.

Astor 11-05-2009 04:45 PM

I've just put Sky News on and it's the main story. It's quite shocking that people could do this.

Thoughts are with those affected, and I hope this is resolved without further loss of life.

(Just a minor suggestion, but given the severity of this, wouldn't it be better suited to Kavar's?)

Trench 11-05-2009 05:00 PM

I still find it hard to believe that any human has the capacity to do something like that.
I pray that they catch anyone involved, and punish them severely (and no, life in prison isn't severe enough for that kind of person. Neither is a lethal injection).

Jae Onasi 11-05-2009 05:17 PM

The shooter has been identified as Major Malik Nadal Hasan (I have to double check spelling, I'm hearing this on streaming radio). 2 other suspects are now in custody, but apparently Maj. Hassan may have been the only shooter. He used 2 handguns. 12 are dead, a mix of soldiers and civilians. 31 are injured, 3 have been lifeflighted to major trauma hospitals in Austin for more advanced trauma care, 2 are in surgery in hospitals in Killeen, TX where Ft. Hood is located.

mimartin 11-05-2009 05:57 PM

Nothing really surprises me in the way mankind treats his environment and each other.

However a Major in the United States Armed Forces being accused of such a crime does surprise me.

I hope for mercy to all the victims and their family and friends.

Jae Onasi 11-05-2009 06:00 PM

I hope this doesn't cause a backlash against fellow Middle Eastern soldiers and citizens. Maj. Hasan apparently was a mental health professional, in a fit of complete irony.

ForeverNight 11-05-2009 06:28 PM

Probability of that not happening, very low. I don't think that those of Middle East decent are going to get out of this easily. I doubt there's a connection, in fact I'd be very surprised if there was (Between this major and an organization such as Hamas), but consider where we've been fighting the past 8 years and this.....

Well, isn't that just a grand situation?

If the discrimination starts within the military, they can all thank this Major.

Jae Onasi 11-05-2009 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForeverNight (Post 2686089)
If the discrimination starts within the military, they can all thank this Major.

The Army's official stance on racism is "The only color we see in the Army is green."

jrrtoken 11-05-2009 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi (Post 2686092)
The Army's official stance on racism is "The only color we see in the Army is green."

Well, yes, except in Vietnam, where Army couldn't get enough of poverty-stricken blacks. So, yes, you can say that the Army doesn't discriminate against non-whites.

And, personally, this isn't quite surprising; it's a simply fact that multiple deployments will only drive one to commit an act such as this. Apparently, the rampant increase in the military personnel suicide rate hasn't massively revamped the handling of the mental health of veterans, so I'll wait and see if a massacre such as this does. I'd probably elicit a "No" out of it all, but that's just me.

Totenkopf 11-05-2009 08:22 PM

Well, last I heard, Maj Hasan had had problems with his tour at Walter Reed and was apparently about to be deployed to either Iraq or Afghanistan. There was something else about his having stated that Muslims should be more openly opposed to our military presence over there also. Will be intertesting to see if it was just a tragic case of a man gone "crazy" or something even more nefarious (ie conspiracy w/ the 2 (+?) others).

Darth Avlectus 11-05-2009 08:37 PM

Well, I'm somewhat at a loss for words. Except Un-effing-believable. I just hope those under his psychiatric care haven't been given dimentia programming for what was supposed to be rehab and care. :(

Litofsky 11-05-2009 08:38 PM

Just heard about it on the evening news. My deepest sympathies to the families of the victims; that someone could even do this to their fellow soldier is egregious.

Q 11-05-2009 09:16 PM

I'm sorry, but I can't think that this guy's religion is coincidental. Of course, I could be wrong.
Quote:

Originally Posted by PastramiX (Post 2686097)
Well, yes, except in Vietnam, where Army couldn't get enough of poverty-stricken blacks. So, yes, you can say that the Army doesn't discriminate against non-whites.

But at slightly less than 12.5% their death toll as a percentage of the total was pretty much in line with their percentage of the US population at the time.

Totenkopf 11-05-2009 09:54 PM

Although earlier reported as having been slain in the shootout, Hasan has apparently survived. Here's a link from MSNBC:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33678801...rts/?GT1=43001

Jae Onasi 11-05-2009 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Totenkopf (Post 2686153)
Although earlier reported as having been slain in the shootout, Hasan has apparently survived.

Wow. I'm surprised he made it.

Q 11-05-2009 10:07 PM

He'll probably end up wishing he hadn't.

Jae Onasi 11-05-2009 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PastramiX (Post 2686097)
Well, yes, except in Vietnam, where Army couldn't get enough of poverty-stricken blacks. So, yes, you can say that the Army doesn't discriminate against non-whites.

You're talking about the Army of 30 years ago during the turmoil of the Civil Rights era. I'm talking about the current one. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PastramiX
And, personally, this isn't quite surprising; it's a simply fact that multiple deployments will only drive one to commit an act such as this. Apparently, the rampant increase in the military personnel suicide rate hasn't massively revamped the handling of the mental health of veterans, so I'll wait and see if a massacre such as this does. I'd probably elicit a "No" out of it all, but that's just me.

The military simply doesn't have enough mental health personnel to handle it all. There is a major effort in the military to work on suicide prevention right now (I've even got mailings about it from Tricare, the military medical insurance), but they need to recruit and retain more qualified people. The mental health professionals currently on active duty are having to serve extra tours than most because there simply aren't enough of them to rotate in and out. Also, dealing with military PTSD is different from, say, drug counseling, post-crime PTSD, treating bipolar or schizophrenia, marriage therapy, and so on, so it requires extra training for people who aren't specialists in those areas.

JediAthos 11-05-2009 10:20 PM

The news is reporting that this guy was on the FBI's radar recently for some internet posts he'd made...and somehow no action was taken and no investigation started.

One would think they might have alerted the Army...

Samuel Dravis 11-05-2009 10:50 PM

My brother-in-law works in the building opposite that one. Fortunately he was off today...

El Sitherino 11-05-2009 10:59 PM

This is definitely an interesting story. I'll be glad when there's less speculation and anecdotal theories, unfortunately at this time the US Army is withholding quite a bit of information on the specifics, though it can be said for certain that Hasan's personal conflicts with his job as well as service in Iraq posed lots of problems. I'll be glad when the reporters stop asking if theres reason to believe a ring of suicide bombers has infiltrated the military, it's quite outlandish.
Hopefully we'll take good care of those people we've got here in Austin and those out in Killeen trauma will be quick to recover.

I also doubt there will be any spike in racism.

ForeverNight 11-05-2009 11:41 PM

Eh, you never know with the Military getting used to shooting 'ragheads' (Not meant as my view, just to show how derisive the enemy has become) I can see it happening, not officially, but with a blind eye. :giveup:

As for the suicide bombers infiltrating... Have those reporters heard of the ASVAB!? Besides, something such as spent a year in Yemun would show up....

Stupid media, stop creating a story out of thin air and do some actual reporting for once.

vanir 11-06-2009 01:46 AM

Let's hope this doesn't become ammunition for an Even More Patriotic Act but I don't think Obama is on that kick thankfully.

My sympathies for yankville <--I say this as a term of endearment.
Nobody deserves to have murdering shooters running around the place, you'd think after upteen thousands of years our species would be over this sort of thing.
Oh well, bring out the crazy book, let's sign these blighters into it.

Totenkopf 11-06-2009 09:19 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_fort_h...ooting_suspect

Point Man 11-06-2009 06:42 PM

Fort Hood Shootings Hit Home
 
Three Army Reserve units I have been assisting in their preparations for deployment were in the building when the shooting took place. I'm the one who typed up their orders that said, "You are hereby ordered to active duty..." Five of our soldiers were killed, and ten were wounded. One of the wounded was a friend that I helped get a position with one of the units.

I know it isn't my fault the people got hurt and killed--blame lies squarely on the man who shot them--but it hurts to see my comrades gunned down. I have only met one of these soldiers face-to-face (my friend), but they are like family.

Please pray for the wounded to recover and for God to bring comfort to the families of the slain soldiers. And please pray that we can find some way to bring a peaceful end to this war.

Ten-96 11-08-2009 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanir (Post 2686192)
Nobody deserves to have murdering shooters running around the place, you'd think after upteen thousands of years our species would be over this sort of thing.

My thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of the wounded and the dead victims.

The shooter, however; is a different story. I have been researching the Islamic religion as of late and have found some interesting points. Many tout the Islamic religion as one of peace. In their Qur'an, it is taught that there will be peace - once all people recognize Islam as their religion. Until such a time, muslims are told in the Qur'an to offer non-believers three choices: conversion, subjugation (slavery) or death. The Qur'an also counsels followers to kill and make war with non-believers. (This site: Jihad Watch is one of the sites I regularly visit.)

I realize that not all followers of Islam practice all of those things. That doesn't make it a peaceful religion, though.

jonathan7 11-08-2009 07:36 PM

I hadn't been intending to post here, but Murph requested I respond, so here goes...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ten-96 (Post 2686527)
My thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of the wounded and the dead victims.

I second this; obviously this is an awful and horrible event and the victims have my sympathies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ten-96 (Post 2686527)
The shooter, however; is a different story.

I'm not familiar with your religious background, however if it is of a Christian tradition I would urge you to pray for the shooter too. Jesus said to love our enemies, and to be honest I think the kind of personthat would go and indiscriminately fire on innocent individuals who are also colleagues and friends is actually in need of more prayer than the victims; in the sense that he is a lot further from God than any of them. It is of course good to remember Jesus reaction to his Roman killers "Forgive them father for they do not know what they do" or to remember that the Apostle Paul was a mass-murderer of Christians before his experience on the Damascus road.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ten-96 (Post 2686527)
I have been researching the Islamic religion as of late and have found some interesting points.

I speak now, as someone who has widely travelled the Middle East and worked in a Muslim country - where have you researched and what have you read?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ten-96 (Post 2686527)
Many tout the Islamic religion as one of peace. In their Qur'an, it is taught that there will be peace - once all people recognize Islam as their religion.

Firstly have you read the Qur’ān? For the record I have read the entire thing. I would say it is always very inadvisable to form opinions based on commentaries and the thoughts, opinions and conjecture of others. Especially if it is based off information from websites, which are frankly often questionable in their content, academic publications are far more useful. The Qur’ān can be seen to teach many things, the above is one such belief, widely held by many Muslim's but not a universal belief; like Christianity, Islam has many sects and "denominations" despite a Muslim's claim of them being united.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ten-96 (Post 2686527)
Until such a time, muslims are told in the Qur'an to offer non-believers three choices: conversion, subjugation (slavery) or death. The Qur'an also counsels followers to kill and make war with non-believers. (This site: Jihad Watch is one of the sites I regularly visit.)

Firstly, having briefly reviewed that website, I would advise the content is very questionable. Second reading the Qur’ān is a very complicated affair as it says very different things in different portions; the Meccan revelations are very different in tone and attitude to Christians and Jews to the Median revelations.

The Meccan Sura, are generally much more positive towards Christians and Jews, calling the former "men of the book" to be consulted on matters of faith. However the Median Sura, which followed Muḥammad's rejection by Christians and Jews are much more aggressive to those of none Muslim faith which calls for them to be killed by the Sword; so it depends which part of the Qur’ān you accept as to your attitude to non-believers if you are a Muslim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ten-96 (Post 2686527)
I realize that not all followers of Islam practice all of those things. That doesn't make it a peaceful religion, though.

The action of a religions followers, I don't think define a religion as peaceful or violent. It's hardly as if Christianity has a wonderful past; general Islamic attitudes were much more acceptive towards Christianity until the Crusades, and indeed all through the Middle Ages, Muslims treated the Jewish far better than the Christians did. More over Christian Conquistadors battered Inca infants heads in to kill them to guarantee them a place in heaven! If you say they aren't real Christians, cannot the same be said for Muslim terrorists?

That said, I confess, I am not a fan of Islam, but I think this the most complex of matters which is far too often simplified and stereotyped. I think we would do well to remember that the Islamic terrorists, have killed far more of their "fellow Muslims" than they have Westerners.

In the end returning this back to the subject of the Gun man, there are many Muslims in the US Armed Forces who faithfully serve their country, and it would be a shame to tarnish them with the same brush as the evil done by Major Malik Nadal Hasan. Again our thoughts must go out to the victims, and I dare say the family of Major Hasan, it must be a terrible thing to have a relative do such evil things.

Ping 11-08-2009 09:16 PM

I feel bad for the victims of the shooting. Makes me wish there was more gun control.

@j7: Nice argument. :golfclap:

@Ten-96: Just by looking at the name of that site, I can already tell the content on there is questionable. Honestly, get a source that's completely objective.

You're being extremely rude to other Muslims, quite frankly.

mimartin 11-08-2009 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ten-96 (Post 2686527)
In their Qur'an, it is taught that there will be peace - once all people recognize Islam as their religion. Until such a time, muslims are told in the Qur'an to offer non-believers three choices: conversion, subjugation (slavery) or death.

I suggest you actually read the Qur’an and not rely on the msinterpretation of others. I’d also suggest you read the Bible and find how it too can be interpreted to advocate violence.

Personally I believe extremist are the problem, no matter if they are Muslim, Christian or any other religion.

However, without knowing exactly why Major Hasan acted in such a way with the current information. I believe it is dishonorable to his victims and their friends and family to speculate at this time about his motives. Now is a time to grieve and support, there will be time to blame in the future.

@Below, no just careless. Playing games while typing.

Totenkopf 11-09-2009 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin (Post 2686693)
I suggest you actually read the Quran and not rely on the miss interruptions of others. Id also suggest you read the Bible and find how it too can be interrupted to advocate violence.

Personally I believe extremist are the problem, no matter if they are Muslim, Christian or any other religion.

However, without knowing exactly why Major Hasan acted in such a way with the current information. I believe it is dishonorable to his victims and their friends and family to speculate at this time about his motives. Now is a time to grieve and support, there will be time to blame in the future.

Were those emboldened misspellings on purpose? :xp: Also, regarding Hassan, I don't believe it's any real mystery as to why he did what he did. It was premeditated and he left a wake of clues behind him that were ignored b/c of the pc mindset in the govt. In that vein, it's not disrespectful b/c both the grieving/support and speculation can happen concurrently. I do agree that extremists, whatever their bent, are a problem.

Ten-96 11-09-2009 01:44 AM

I have read the Bible numerous times and consider myself fairly knowledgeable when it comes to the Holy Scriptures . I have, as I stated above, began to look into the Islamic religion (most online and a borrowed copy of the Qur'an from the local library). Jihad Watch is only one of the many websites I visit. There are numerous others. While there are many that view academia and the publications thereof as the place to go for information, I do not. The internet has a vast array of unfiltered information that is readily available with and without bias.

My view of the Islamic faith has changed. I used to believe that it was a religion of peace and would argue with others about it. I'm too old to read one opinion and base my views on that. Just because I view Muslims differently now doesn't make me rude or insensitive. My views of that religion are mine and I don't expect them to shared by everyone. I merely voice my opinion and debate based on my views and experience.


A lot of this may seem of topic until you consider the words uttered by Hasan before he began to shoot his fellow soldiers. Then, consider the reported internet postings and the FBI's interest in Hasan. You can also consider the statements made by those that served with him and knew him.

mimartin 11-09-2009 01:57 AM

@ Oh, really Tot, you are in the know. You actually know his motivations?

So what were they?

Was he afraid?

Did he not like supporting a military killing people that look like him? Similar to the Japanese Americans that fought during WW 2.

Was he a religious zealot?

Or was a Terrorist that had infiltrated our military?

And yes, I do find speculation disrespectful when the family and friends only want real answers. However, that does not mean anyone cannot speculate to their little hearts content, it is just my personal view. I’ll wait at least until the victims bodies are laid to rest.

Ten-96 11-09-2009 02:09 AM

Many news organizations have been releasing more and more details about Hasan's military service and troubles.

Hasan Article in the Examiner.

Totenkopf 11-09-2009 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin (Post 2686733)
Did he not like supporting a military killing people that look like him? Similar to the Japanese Americans that fought during WW 2.

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of white Americans were really upset about having to kill white europeans in WW1 and WW2. :rolleyes:

Web Rider 11-09-2009 03:47 PM

I don't know why he did it and I don't feel right speculating. A lot of people simply snap and this is especially true for people in the military precisely because they DONT have enough mental health services and because of the hardships of war. Very few people close to him seem to think he's an extremist. I am however, that he actually survived. And I suspect that he will later wish he didn't.

mimartin 11-09-2009 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Totenkopf (Post 2686769)
Yeah, I'm sure a lot of white Americans were really upset about having to kill white europeans in WW1 and WW2. :rolleyes:

Nice one liner, but I was only replying with stuff I had heard on Fox News and ABC News. You may want to actually check out the difficulties shared by Japanese American "heroes" soldiers that fought against their own race and culture. It is very different for a common race and culture than for whites that have very different cultures and backgrounds. I would put it more along the lines of me fighting against fellow Texans than fighting Europeans.

Nice way to skirt the question though. :thmbup1:

Jae Onasi 11-09-2009 05:40 PM

Maj. Hasan was born and grew up in the US and was quite American. He was scheduled to go to Afghanistan and serve as a psychiatrist--he was never going to see any combat, much less combat against fellow Palestinians.

Hasan having PTSD? The man never served a day in combat, indeed was never deployed anywhere outside of the US unless he went to some kind of international conference. If he had PTSD, it was from some civilian event. IF is the key word, here.

I think a lot of speculation is premature, since autopsies are still being done on the deceased, forensic evidence is being gathered, and Hasan is still in the hospital, but asking questions isn't inappropriate.

Vigilantism is never appropriate. Jumping to conclusions without facts does no one any good.

However, if asking questions now on how this could have happened can prevent another situation from happening, and it's done respectfully, then I don't think that's disrespectful to the dead. Indeed, we owe it to the dead and wounded to find out all the answers we can to prevent a similar disaster in the future.

Totenkopf 11-09-2009 06:02 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_fort_hood_shooting


Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin (Post 2686848)
Nice one liner, but I was only replying with stuff I had heard on Fox News and ABC News. You may want to actually check out the difficulties shared by Japanese American "heroes" soldiers that fought against their own race and culture. It is very different for a common race and culture than for whites that have very different cultures and backgrounds. I would put it more along the lines of me fighting against fellow Texans than fighting Europeans.

Well, the most decorated Japanese American unit in WW2 was the 442nd Combat Regiment*, and it was deployed to Europe. I'm sure there were probably some German Americans that weren't all that crazy about having to fight other Germans. But fact is, most Americans look like most Europeans, ie predominantly caucasian. In some cases they probably weren't all that culturally different either, given the last big wave of Euro-emigrants were from central europe toward the end of the 19th century. I'm sure there were individuals that may have felt conflicted b/c of that, or maybe they'd be killing distant or not so distant relatives. One of the hazards of being a nation w/a lot of immigration. No doubt the Civil War in America was a source of angst for many soldiers. As for those conflicted Japanese (be they nisei, sansei, etc...), I rather doubt many/any of them responded by killing a bunch of their fellow soldiers as Hasan did.

Problem with Hasan is that the act did NOT occur in a vacuum. Much of the "speculation" isn't of the aimless race-baiting kind (ie "dirty muslim" or somesuch). Just as the 442nd proved in WW2 that being Japanese American didn't mean being disloyal, it would be wrong to knee jerk assume that muslim Americans are axiomatically guilty of harboring seditious or treasonous attitudes. It would be equally unwise to assume that there aren't some who do.

*iirc, the most decorated unit in the army during WW2.

Darth Avlectus 11-09-2009 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathan7 (Post 2686643)
<snip> Jesus said to love our enemies, and to be honest I think the kind of personthat would go and indiscriminately fire on innocent individuals who are also colleagues and friends is actually in need of more prayer than the victims; in the sense that he is a lot further from God than any of them. <snip>

While I would basically agree, I'd hope that "forgiveness" doesn't mean that we just simply let Hasan off easy (or scott free for that matter) for his crimes. Kindness should not be weakness. "Forgiveness but not without a price still to pay" or so the saying went.

Quote:

That said, I confess, I am not a fan of Islam, but I think this the most complex of matters which is far too often simplified and stereotyped. I think we would do well to remember that the Islamic terrorists, have killed far more of their "fellow Muslims" than they have Westerners.
All the more reason to be skeptical*?
(*: That of being harshly fair and not slanted one way or the other)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin (Post 2686693)
Personally I believe extremist are the problem, no matter if they are Muslim, Christian or any other religion.

IIRC an imam from the shooter's own mosque who knew him personally was dumbfounded, or so he seemed on the phone live to one of those news organizations reporting on this. Members of his own family were shocked. So whatever it was, it was his (the shooter's) own hangup.

Quote:

there will be time to blame in the future.
At that point we shall see, then, if all the evidence reportedly left in his wake were warning signs.


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