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-   -   U.S. Rifle Scopes with extra Bible (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=202461)

True_Avery 01-20-2010 03:01 AM

U.S. Rifle Scopes with extra Bible
 
http://content.usatoday.com/communit...iolate-rules/1
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...n_f.php?ref=mp

So, how do the religious members of the forum feel about verses from their Bible being placed onto military gun scopes in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Its good to know the Bible is being delivered to people via armor piercing round.

(This can be moved to Kavars if any mod wants. Just wanted to post this)

Totenkopf 01-20-2010 03:30 AM

God works in mysterious ways. :xp: Wonder if they're using this one, given the islamists obsession w/beheadings..... matthew xxvi. 52 (AV) All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword;

Q 01-20-2010 03:44 AM

I take note of why the verses are on the scopes in the first place. Trijicon has been doing it for 20 years, long before they started selling anything to the military.

But, yeah, since they're being sold to a federal organization, the inscriptions really shouldn't be on the scopes.

Darth InSidious 01-20-2010 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True_Avery (Post 2702331)
http://content.usatoday.com/communit...iolate-rules/1
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...n_f.php?ref=mp

So, how do the religious members of the forum feel about verses from their Bible being placed onto military gun scopes in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Its good to know the Bible is being delivered to people via armor piercing round.

(This can be moved to Kavars if any mod wants. Just wanted to post this)

Oh, why don't you stop preteding this is anything but an evil atheist communist clique forum, Avery! :mad:

spoiler:
Because the whole notion is bollocks, of course.


More seriously, I feel somewhat amused. Putting a reference to "the light of life" on a gun-scope is possibly one of the most brilliantly inappropriate decisions you could make. I suppose "I am the bread of life" would have been more inappropriate.

I don't see much point in getting upset about it from a religious angle, though it is diplomatically disastrous.

Sabretooth 01-20-2010 04:07 AM

Wonder if they include "Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword."

jonathan7 01-20-2010 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Totenkopf (Post 2702332)
God works in mysterious ways. :xp: Wonder if they're using this one, given the islamists obsession w/beheadings..... matthew xxvi. 52 (AV) All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabretooth (Post 2702343)
Wonder if they include "Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword."

One has to question the intelligence of anyone that would put this on a weapon they used to kill people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Q (Post 2702337)
I take note of why the verses are on the scopes in the first place. Trijicon has been doing it for 20 years, long before they started selling anything to the military.

Any idea why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Q (Post 2702337)
But, yeah, since they're being sold to a federal organization, the inscriptions really shouldn't be on the scopes.

Agreed, especially when they seem to be ignoring the general teaching of, they guy they say they follow. I was under the impression Jesus said "love your enemies", but maybe I'm mistaken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth InSidious (Post 2702341)
More seriously, I feel somewhat amused. Putting a reference to "the light of life" on a gun-scope is possibly one of the most brilliantly inappropriate decisions you could make. I suppose "I am the bread of life" would have been more inappropriate.

Agreed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth InSidious (Post 2702341)
I don't see much point in getting upset about it from a religious angle, though it is diplomatically disastrous.

Doesn't help fight claims from the Radical Islamists that this is another Crusade either.

jrrtoken 01-20-2010 06:31 AM

America: bringing life, liberty, and the pursuit of the Lord Jesus to all. :nvr4get:

Drunkside 01-20-2010 08:12 AM

Rofllolomglul etc. Im seriously amused by this, but then again, its nothing new. Cristianity has been spread using similar means for centuries. I hope the muslims do something similar :xp: And buddhists. Oh wait, they are not trying to convert other people. Well anyway :p

Totenkopf 01-20-2010 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathan7 (Post 2702352)
One has to question the intelligence of anyone that would put this on a weapon they used to kill people.

I'd say more likely question their motives or sensitivity. Still, I tend to agree w/DI and Q that it's not particularly appropriate and bad PR to boot. Still, funny in a perverse kind of way.....

JediAthos 01-20-2010 09:36 AM

As had already been said this is something that the manufacturer of the scopes had been doing for years and something they admit to readily. So, it has little to do with the soldiers themselves, or the Army.

It has more to do with the Pentagon and whomever awarded the company the contract. If you feel it is inappropriate that's where the questions should be directed. There is a fair amount of disclosure that happens when the government awards a contract to a company and I would guess that if the government was happy with the product at the time the contract was awarded they didn't really care about the inscriptions.

I wouldn't expect anything to change unless the usual suspects who overreact about everything raise a significant amount of rabble to put pressure on the government who then will likely do nothing more than ask the company to refrain from putting the inscriptions on products bound for U.S. military use.

I personally don't think it's a big deal, if the government feels the company puts out a quality product and the Army is happy with the way the product works then so be it.

Jae Onasi 01-20-2010 10:42 AM

As far as I know, it's not a violation of any US laws to put the inscription on the scopes. I'm kind of torn on this. If the verse reminds soldiers of faith to keep God in mind, I get that. At the same time, the irony of a Bible verse on an item used to kill is not lost on me.

mimartin 01-20-2010 11:13 AM

This would be funny if not for the lives involved, both Iraqi and Allies. We are occupying a Muslim country and someone somewhere thought it was a good idea to supply our troops with equipment with Bible verses. Brilliant! Put another star on that man’s shoulder.

Just hope the reports of the Military issuing this equipment to Iraqi Military are incorrect.

jonathan7 01-20-2010 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediAthos (Post 2702377)
I personally don't think it's a big deal, if the government feels the company puts out a quality product and the Army is happy with the way the product works then so be it.

No offence, but it's this attitude that gets the US in trouble abroad, it doesn't matter at home it does matter ALOT in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Crusades were not a good think, people were massacred; yet Bush conjured up images of the Crusades, and Bin Laden et al, tell Muslims that this is another Crusade against Islam. Things like this don't dispel the notion that this is a religious war (which it's not), and that is why this is a big, massive and stupid move.

Pavlos 01-20-2010 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth InSidious (Post 2702341)
More seriously, I feel somewhat amused. Putting a reference to "the light of life" on a gun-scope is possibly one of the most brilliantly inappropriate decisions you could make. I suppose "I am the bread of life" would have been more inappropriate.

"Thou shalt not kill", whilst lacking in artistry, would have been more brutal in its irony.

moda 01-20-2010 11:26 AM

what ever happened to the american attitude of telling people who bitch about them to stick up their rectal orifice. the imprinting of religious or political messages on weaponry or munitions has been a tradition for hundreds of years, any sensible war historian can tell you that.
it usually was confined to the artillery corps though, i mean who doesn't remember the film of the royal artillery troops lying around the the half man size artillery shell with "to willie with love" written on it.

an american example would be the bombs use on the doolittle raid of Tokyo, they all had obscene or racist remarks written on them by the pilots and crew who flew the planes which dropped them.
it is an aspect of war, a way to give another stab at your enemy, dont let them ruin an aspect of military custom any further. dont let the political correctness mob take away any more of the individuality and character than it already has

mimartin 01-20-2010 11:28 AM

You think they could fit all of Ezekiel 25:17 on a scope?

Are we there as conquers or occupiers? I think that would make a difference in if we are telling people to stick in their ears, or not.

jonathan7 01-20-2010 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702405)
<snipped for brevity>

Sighs, right fine, don't listen to the guy who's lived in a Muslim country, I'm not PC police, but I am telling you that while it may have been fine in passed wars does not mean it's a good idea in this one. This is a walking PR disaster which strolls right into the hands of the Terrorist propaganda machine.

moda 01-20-2010 12:17 PM

all i am saying is this is a part of war, it might be bad PR, but it is still a part of war. I am i will admit a historian, and because of this i am also more orientated in history, in which PR was a non-issue at most points. however, as i understand it, you are shooting, you are killing, why the hell would you worry about PR, surely the other two facts would mean it almost impossible for you to have good PR.

War is a means by which God (or the Gods) shall determine the rightful victor. That is the earliest conception of war, a massive trial by ordeal. you cannot and should not worry about how it is conceived by those whom you are at war with. it defeats the purpose, for you are engaged in a contest which judges the individual strength of you and your enemy, if you try to make yourself look desirable to your enemy, you will undermine your own values for which you are fighting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathan7 (Post 2702409)
Sighs, right fine, don't listen to the guy who's lived in a Muslim country, I'm not PC police, but I am telling you that while it may have been fine in passed wars does not mean it's a good idea in this one. This is a walking PR disaster which strolls right into the hands of the Terrorist propaganda machine.

but could they not also manipulate it to appear as if you lack conviction, if you are so willing to change your custom and conduct to appear to be PR friendly, they can easily use your willingness to bend, as a rallying call to show just how little you actually believe in this war. would it not then be better to be seen as inflexible, than to be seen as weak. you wouldnt want to make the same mistake that Johnson made in vietnam would you.

jonathan7 01-20-2010 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702414)
all i am saying is this is a part of war, it might be bad PR, but it is still a part of war. I am i will admit a historian, and because of this i am also more orientated in history, in which PR was a non-issue at most points. however, as i understand it, you are shooting, you are killing, why the hell would you worry about PR, surely the other two facts would mean it almost impossible for you to have good PR.

Last time I checked this was apparently a war to liberate, and you weren't the US wasn't an empire. I had heard you wanted to win hearts and minds, please correct me, if I was under the wrong impression.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702414)
War is a means by which God (or the Gods) shall determine the rightful victor. That is the earliest conception of war, a massive trial by ordeal. you cannot and should not worry about how it is conceived by those whom you are at war with. it defeats the purpose, for you are engaged in a contest which judges the individual strength of you and your enemy, if you try to make yourself look desirable to your enemy, you will undermine your own values for which you are fighting.

Seeing as your a historian you fancy giving me a source on that? Perhaps I'm being extremely naive here, but going back to pre-historic times, I'm pretty sure war would of broken out because one set of people had something (most likely land) that the others wanted. So they would try and take it. I don't really see how God figures into the above dispute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702414)
but could they not also manipulate it to appear as if you lack conviction,

How does putting Bible verses on your weapon have anything to do with "conviction"? Furthermore, there would be no downside to not printing the verses on the weapons. Printing the verses only has a downside, I don't see any upside to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702414)
if you are so willing to change your custom and conduct to appear to be PR friendly, they can easily use your willingness to bend, as a rallying call to show just how little you actually believe in this war.

YOUR IN THEIR LAND. You should bend to the other culture, this isn't on US soil, if your wanting to win hearts and minds then doing this, isn't a good idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702414)
would it not then be better to be seen as inflexible, than to be seen as weak.

How is inflexibility a strength? Nor would you be seen as weak for removing something the Taliban et al can use as proof to coerce other people into becoming terrorists. They can say, "look the Christians are invading, this is a religious war, they carry Bible verses on their weapons; fight them".

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702414)
you wouldnt want to make the same mistake that Johnson made in vietnam would you.

Your the one making Vietnam happen all over again with the above thinking, if you want to win hearts and minds, you want to take religion out of this, and say that this isn't a war of religion. The Taliban et al, all want to make Muslims think this is a religious war, which last time I checked at least, it is not.

mimartin 01-20-2010 12:42 PM

Inflexibility is a weakness. Those that cannot adapt to changes are doomed to extinction.

Astor 01-20-2010 12:46 PM

I don't necessarily have a problem with them putting these inscriptions on the scopes for the US Army. When they're selling to international customers, however (the MoD just bought 480 of them for the new Sharpshooter rifles), they should be removed.

Although, even in the US Army there are soldiers who aren't Christian, so I wonder how they feel about it.

moda 01-20-2010 01:12 PM

j7 i was using an old political definition of trial by ordeal, which essentially is a trial by ordeal is when a dispute is decided by a contest of strength, and the favour of god. paraphrased from an english law maker whose name escapes me at the moment.
it is developed from a medieval concept which involved the honourable duel, to be a final recourse in a dispute by which the final decision was left up to god

the idea behind the statement is that the chaotic factor in a trial by ordeal is the will of the god, or gods to whom that culture gives worship, in a case between two warring cultures their dispute is then decided by either the will of their gods, or by the conquest of one cultures god over another. that is paraphrased from Nietzsche in his work as a philologist.

you talk about winning the hearts and minds and that is something which i will admit i have little to no knowledge of, except to say it a is baseless stupidity on the parts of those who decided it, and if that is the underlying goal then i will have to admit you to be right.

but if the underlying goal was to introduce democracy, remove dictators and tyrannical governments then it is not an issue. winning the hearts and minds to me sounds like a political rhetoric to make things sound better.

the mistake johnson made in vietnam was expecting the enemy to think like they did. he pulled the punches and fought what was essentially a half war. you cannot be victorious in war when you are removing your own cultural influences so as to make an impartial war, such a thing is indeed impossible.

J7 you say this is not a war of religion, but in here you make the mistake of the politicians, war is a cultural struggle, the differences of the cultures and peoples involved are always going to be the primary focus of the war, if the religion is different, then religion will be a focus of the war, it is unavoidable. if they are nations of the same religion, then it will be others differences which will act as a focal point.

inflexibility as a strength only happens when you are facing an enemy who is insidious, they will take your attempts to compromise, and show mercy and bend it, use it to their advantage. for example in vietnam, the american pilots were not allowed to attack surface to air missile batteries unless that missile battery was operation, in other words shooting at them. this is where being inflexible works to your advantage, if you take the iron arm approach your enemy has less which they can instinctively use against you. they will of course have a propaganda vehicle of your intolerance but that is unavoidable, if you have invaded you can always be portrayed as being the one who is evil.

JediAthos 01-20-2010 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathan7 (Post 2702403)
No offence, but it's this attitude that gets the US in trouble abroad, it doesn't matter at home it does matter ALOT in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Crusades were not a good think, people were massacred; yet Bush conjured up images of the Crusades, and Bin Laden et al, tell Muslims that this is another Crusade against Islam. Things like this don't dispel the notion that this is a religious war (which it's not), and that is why this is a big, massive and stupid move.

In all honesty if it weren't for whomever reported the story no one would have a clue, but that I think is another issue.

At any rate I understand your point J7 while at the same time I'm not sure what difference it will make. The people who are angry at the US presence will still be angry and will continue to fight in the name of their twisted version of Islam which they are already doing anyway, and they will do so even if the company stops printing the inscriptions on the scopes just as they would if the inscriptions were never there.

So, really in the big picture it doesn't change much imo. Could it change the thoughts of a few people...yes it could, but will it change the thoughts enough to make any difference in the current state of affairs..I can't say for sure but I don't think so.

jonathan7 01-20-2010 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702424)
j7 i was using an old political definition of trial by ordeal, which essentially is a trial by ordeal is when a dispute is decided by a contest of strength, and the favour of god. paraphrased from an english law maker whose name escapes me at the moment.
it is developed from a medieval concept which involved the honourable duel, to be a final recourse in a dispute by which the final decision was left up to god

So basically you concede then that trial by ideal is a relatively new definition that is now defunct, because I'm pretty sure the British Empire onwards, has never agreed with trial by ordeal and as such is now defunct, so I'm confused as to what possible relation it has to this thread. Unless you are going to claim, that the Napoleonic, First and Second World wars were all "trial by ordeal"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702424)
the idea behind the statement is that the chaotic factor in a trial by ordeal is the will of the god, or gods to whom that culture gives worship, in a case between two warring cultures their dispute is then decided by either the will of their gods, or by the conquest of one cultures god over another. that is paraphrased from Nietzsche in his work as a philologist.

Your grossly misread "Beyond Good and Evil" if you think Nietzsche thought anything was decided by the God(s).

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702424)
you talk about winning the hearts and minds and that is something which i will admit i have little to no knowledge of, except to say it a is baseless stupidity on the parts of those who decided it, and if that is the underlying goal then i will have to admit you to be right.

It's not at all stupid, when you are a military force, with small numbers, you need the support of the local population. If the aim of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq was to stop terrorism, then above anything else making people not want to suicide bomb us, is a battle of "hearts and minds". Failure to gain support of the local population in Afghanistan will just lead to a similar defeat to Vietnam, and Afghanistan has previous history of defeating technologically and militarily superior Super Powers in the form of the Soviet Union and the British Empire. As a historian, surely your recognize you need to learn from history? Well if you want Afghanistan to be a success you will need to win the support of the people.

However, I think Iraq was all about oil, but the above is what the leader of the "free" world at the time said. However unless you gain the support of the local populace democracy and anything else you are trying to do will fail. As such given that religion is such an important thing in those area's of the world, it would be wise not to play into the Taliban et al's hands. Otherwise you WILL have another Vietnam on your hands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702424)
but if the underlying goal was to introduce democracy, remove dictators and tyrannical governments then it is not an issue. winning the hearts and minds to me sounds like a political rhetoric to make things sound better.

I fail to see what any of the above has to do with Bible verses on weapons, I also fail how to see how being needlessly antagonistic in a manner which is going to provoke a bad reaction which could get troops killed is a sensible move.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702424)
the mistake johnson made in vietnam was expecting the enemy to think like they did.

moda, I've lived in a Muslim country, I dare say I know how "they" think a lot better than you do. It is because of that that I'm telling you, having Bible verses printed on weapons is a bad idea. Your the one who is assuming the enemy thinks like you; I understand how they think, I've had conversations with Islamic Fundamentalists.


Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702424)
he pulled the punches and fought what was essentially a half war. you cannot be victorious in war when you are removing your own cultural influences so as to make an impartial war, such a thing is indeed impossible.

You what? Again what has this to do with the topic at hand? Having Bible verses printed on weapons is a needless provocation which plays into the hands of the Terrorist recruitment drive, I fail to see how that has anything to do with "Cultural Influences", especially since last time I checked the Cultural influence of Jesus was meant to be love and peace; or maybe I missed a trick?

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702424)
J7 you say this is not a war of religion

If this is a war of religion, then the war in Afghanistan will fail simple as. If it is Christianity vs Islam, then all of Afghanistan will take up arms against the Allied troops there. Furtermore, this is a "War on Terrorism" most Muslims are not terrorists, however most Muslims also hold no love for the west. Ever wondered why that is? If your aware of that fact?

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702424)
but in here you make the mistake of the politicians, war is a cultural struggle, the differences of the cultures and peoples involved are always going to be the primary focus of the war, if the religion is different, then religion will be a focus of the war, it is unavoidable. if they are nations of the same religion, then it will be others differences which will act as a focal point.

Last time I checked, the average allied troop doesn't really have too much in the way of religious belief, generally most of the West is secular now by most definitions. While America is a religious country, I would say the main judicial branches, especially now are not religious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702424)
inflexibility as a strength only happens when you are facing an enemy who is insidious, they will take your attempts to compromise, and show mercy and bend it, use it to their advantage.

Indeed from the very book you miss-represented my favourite philosopher, you should have recalled this;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nietzsche
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you."

(Beyond Good and Evil, Chapter IV: Apophthegms and Interludes, Walter Kaufmann translation)

Last time I checked some of the things the West represented were Human Rights, Liberal Deomcracy, Freedom of Speech etc. What you are talking about is acting as barbaristically; which is actually allowing the terrorists to win as we become more like them and give up the ideals we are apparently fighting for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702424)
for example in vietnam, the american pilots were not allowed to attack surface to air missile batteries unless that missile battery was operation, in other words shooting at them.

And that has what to do with Bible verses being on weapons?

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702424)
this is where being inflexible works to your advantage

Simple law of nature, failure to adapt means death, I don't know why your obsessed on trying to break the rules of nature. Especially when as a historian you should be aware culture is constantly changing in any respect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702424)
if you take the iron arm approach your enemy has less which they can instinctively use against you.

You seem to be talking about ruling with an Iron fist, what are we fighting these terrorists over again? As currently you seem to be acting just like them, please correct me if I have misunderstood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702424)
they will of course have a propaganda vehicle of your intolerance but that is unavoidable

I fail to see where your tolerance of Islam has been in this thread, if you were being tolerant of Muslims, why are you so eager for Bible verses to be on weapons?

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702424)
if you have invaded you can always be portrayed as being the one who is evil.

So why not do yourself a favoure, and take away one means of you being portrayed as the bad guy?

moda 01-20-2010 02:12 PM

I was not quoting beyond good and evil. i was referring more to implications which become visible across multiple works of his, an idea of conflict of cultures, with gods being the most visible of this conflict because of their nature.
Besides in beyond good and evil does he not refer to the jewish abuse of their god, and the transformation of their god into an imperialistic justification.

and yes i remember that famous quote of nietzsche, but it was merely an aphorism without much support or indication of context.
But did not Nietzsche also advocate strength, and unflinching intent, do it as you will because you will, not because someone else wills it. did he not also celebrate the great men in history who would stand unflinching and willing to commit acts of the greatest barbarity.

and i am not all that eager for bible verses on weapons, i just dont see what is so bad about it.

trial by ordeal is a dead concept in most legal bases i will concede,
But i would claim the Napoleonic first and second world wars as a trial by ordeal. Especially the first world war .

the first world war was a clashing of the old and new styles of european culture, germany representing the future, england and france the old way of life. the first world war in my honest opinion became a clash between the old way of life and the new way of life. a clash between what was and what was to be.

mimartin 01-20-2010 02:36 PM

If you want to discuss philosophy take it to the appropriate thread. Otherwise if you want to continue in this thread get back on topic.


BTW I have "vengeance is mine" carved into my keyboard.

moda 01-20-2010 02:49 PM

Sorry.

one thing i do not understand though, is why this simple thing is such an issue to those of the opinion that it is a politically incorrect thing. why does it matter. is this not a war that is being waged.

or is it a continued military engagement.

If the conflict in the middle east is not a proper war, then J7 i must concede you are right.
however if the engagments in afghanistan and iraq are proper wars, then i will argue that the imprinted of bible passages on weapons of war, which ultimately reflect the convictions and beliefs of one of the nations involved in this war are not wrong in any way shape or form, and the criticizing such things is ultimately more harmful overall than any damage such things would cause on their own

mimartin 01-20-2010 03:02 PM

It is a fairly big deal to me because even if it only inspires 1 person to take up arms against American, Allied troops or against the civilian population then becomes not just a oversight, but a tragic stupid mistake. One that was preventable had someone in charge actually considered the implications before hand. We should be doing everything possible to protect soldiers fighting for our countries, not helping make them targets. Just shows how well planned this entire stupidity was from the very beginning. Can’t get our soldiers proper body armor or armor for their vehicles, but they have scopes with Bible verses.

moda 01-20-2010 03:18 PM

but on the same token, wasting all this energy arguing about it, it is a pointles semantic, it is a custom of the company who makes the material, i can see the argument if it was put there by request, but this is a trait and practice of the company who makes the equipment.
i also cannot see how something this minor can cause someone to seriously take up arms.
if something so small can inspire someone to take up arms it is likely that they would've done it anyway for some other reason. If they are so close to the edge, they will fall over eventually, it doesnt matter what is the trigger, all that matters is that it is dealt with as it happens.

if we start looking at from the whatifs we will become paralyzed with indecision, it is in the face of that that i support inflexibility, one must know when to bend, and when to stand firm, bend and never stand and your foe conquers because you will become like them in an effort to adapt, stand resilient and your foe may just adapt to be like you. its a careful balance but it must be done. Adapting for the sake of adapting can be far more detrimental than not adapting at all.

mimartin 01-20-2010 03:27 PM

Still stupid we bought this for our military fighting in the Middle East. Why not cut out the middle man and just paint bull eyes on their uniforms?

http://www.vpcam.com/members/1402226/uploaded/60266.jpg



Are you suggesting we ignore stupidity? Wouldnít just allow them to continue to make stupid mistakes that get people killed?

moda 01-20-2010 04:34 PM

but i dont see how this will get people killed, oh and for the record i am not american, i am australian, so this really doesnt entirely reflect on me, i just dont see what the big issue with it all is

jonathan7 01-20-2010 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda (Post 2702475)
but i dont see how this will get people killed, oh and for the record i am not american, i am australian, so this really doesnt entirely reflect on me, i just dont see what the big issue with it all is

Right, you said this to me earlier;

Quote:

Originally Posted by moda
the mistake johnson made in vietnam was expecting the enemy to think like they did.

But the only person in this thread not getting into either the mindset of the enemy or understanding the cultural aspects of Islam within Afghanistan is you.

I really don't see what's hard to understand about the fact Muslims think the Crusades are bad, and the Taliban et al are saying this is another Crusade and Christians are occupying your land. Having Bible verses on bullets does not distil the notion that it is a Christian occupying force; which acts as a recruitment tool for the terrorists. Given its such a small thing, and it could save lives I fail to see why some are so desperate to hanging onto it. I'm telling you that having Bible verses on bullets will cause anger in the Muslim world; the success of failure of the mission in Afghanistan hangs on the ability of the forces their to understand the people. Having Bible verses on bullets, is a massive provocation, and will allow the terrorists to say the Christian invaders are here in a war against Islam. Which I'm sure that this will have seen some people join the Taliban. People in Afghanistan are very religious; I have good friends who worked there under the Taliban pre the invasion, do not underestimate the religious zealous of the people there.

Regardless I'm done with this thread.

Totenkopf 01-20-2010 06:19 PM

I'd say that given the somewhat provisional manner in which our forces are being engaged in all this (ie not a global fight to the finish like WW2 in many ways), perhaps it's unwise to put that stuff on the scopes for troops in the field, regardless of how long the company has been doing it. While I don't personally care how they (the islamists radicals) feel about it, there is still the possibility that such a seemingly insignificant detail could cause feathers to be ruffled with the other locals, making our mission there unnecessarily complicated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlos
"Thou shalt not kill", whilst lacking in artistry, would have been more brutal in its irony.

Quite so.

Ping 01-20-2010 09:33 PM

I think this is just going to incite more terrorists. Besides, the U.S. is now acting like Christianity is the official religion of the country, which it is not, and judging by what's on the scopes, the nation also seems to assume that everyone in the military is Christian, which is false. Yet another reason why I've pretty much lost faith in the Christian religion.

Tommycat 01-20-2010 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlos (Post 2702404)
"Thou shalt not kill", whilst lacking in artistry, would have been more brutal in its irony.

I'd seriously question the accuracy of a scope with that on it...

To the thread: Not the brightest move. But also an innocent mistake. The company has been doing this for far longer than it has been a supplier for the US Military. It seems more like an oversight. I'm sure future purchases will be without the quote.

Jae Onasi 01-21-2010 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathan7 (Post 2702403)
No offence, but it's this attitude that gets the US in trouble abroad, it doesn't matter at home it does matter ALOT in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Crusades were not a good think, people were massacred; yet Bush conjured up images of the Crusades, and Bin Laden et al, tell Muslims that this is another Crusade against Islam. Things like this don't dispel the notion that this is a religious war (which it's not), and that is why this is a big, massive and stupid move.

Would we Americans/UN troops/whoever else is there care if Iraqi scopes had 'Allahu ackbar' inscribed on them? No. I don't give a flying hoo-hah about the scope or inscription, I care about whether the bullet that just got fired out of that gun is going to hit me or not. I suspect if some of these scopes end up in enemy hands, they're not going to get tossed aside because they have a Christian verse on it.

moda 01-21-2010 02:38 AM

the only danger is thinking you understand the enemy. when the enemy has such a violently different mental prerogative you cannot understand them. you also cannot afford to believe they will play by your rules. in such a case all you can really do is use pure and overwhelming military force. Isnt the Islamic faith intrinsically pacifistic in nature, or so they keep claiming, if they are so willing to claim something which is minor, and has been the case for 20 years, as religious provocation, well that surely would imply they themselves are simply intolerant and militaristic in nature.

mur'phon 01-21-2010 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jae
Would we Americans/UN troops/whoever else is there care if Iraqi scopes had 'Allahu ackbar' inscribed on them? No. I don't give a flying hoo-hah about the scope or inscription, I care about whether the bullet that just got fired out of that gun is going to hit me or not.
And so would I, unfourtantely this isn't about wether we would care or not had the situation been reversed. I find shaking hands to be a meaningless gesture, I still do it to make avoid uneccesary problems.

Quote:

I suspect if some of these scopes end up in enemy hands, they're not going to get tossed aside because they have a Christian verse on it.
Of course, they might file the inscription away, but even if they don't, it will be weapons taken from the crusading enemy. Unlike US troops, no Afghani would believe you if you claimed that taliban fighters are christians because they use weapons with christian verses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moda
the only danger is thinking you understand the enemy. when the enemy has such a violently different mental prerogative you cannot understand them.
While I wouldn't claim to "understand" "them" in the sence that I can be certain how a group of diverse individuals will react, I can understand enough to make an educated guess. Since just about every action we make is based on us making predictions for what will happen, I don't see how chosing to keep/remove bible verses from scopes are any different.

Quote:

you also cannot afford to believe they will play by your rules.
And what rules would they be in this instance?

Quote:

in such a case all you can really do is use pure and overwhelming military force.
In Afghanistan this aproach has been tried twice allready, I fail to see how this time it would be any different.

Quote:

Isnt the Islamic faith intrinsically pacifistic in nature, or so they keep claiming, if they are so willing to claim something which is minor, and has been the case for 20 years, as religious provocation, well that surely would imply they themselves are simply intolerant and militaristic in nature.
Who are those "they" you refer to?

mimartin 01-21-2010 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi (Post 2702566)
Would we Americans/UN troops/whoever else is there care if Iraqi scopes had 'Allahu ackbar' inscribed on them?

I would say for the most part the answer would be NO.

I also don't see most of us getting upset over a political cartoon or a book that is critical of our beliefs. However, I do remember something about Muslims calling for the death of the artist/author that published material critical of their beliefs. I donít believe we should suppress our culture/beliefs to attempt to appraise another culture, but when we are foreigners on their soil, we should do everything possible to keep from making them more upset at the so-called invaders.

Personally, I would not buy a scope with Bible verses on it I find the practice sacrilegious. That does not mean I would judge anyone that had the scope as being sacrilegious. Iím not responsible for their actions to make that judgment.

Astor 01-21-2010 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegame197676 (Post 2702690)
But when you hijack 4 of our planes and use them to kill thousands of people, I do care...

Patriotic jingoism FTW!

Quote:

what ever the troops want on the scope of their rifles is their business... as long as they are hitting the enemy centermass thats all that matters to me.. Huuuaaahh!!
It's not the troops putting those inscriptions on the scopes. And while I respect the company's right to religious expression, I just think they should perhaps understand that some of their customers might not want a quote from the Bible on their scope.


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