LucasForums

LucasForums (http://www.lucasforums.com/index.php)
-   Tosche Station (http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=737)
-   -   The lightsaber concept (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=203235)

Darca Lar 03-25-2010 04:35 PM

The lightsaber concept
 
I was looking at a candle that I lit, just watching the flames dance on the wick and for some reason started comparing it to a lightsaber. The fire on a candle sits on a wick, just as the blade of a lightsaber sits on its hilt. However, the flame is free-flowing while the lightsaber is a straight laser. Flames go a certain distance based on heat, but today's lasers continue to travel until something stops it. Right now I feel pretty stupid thinking about something that doesn't exist, and I'm no scientific inventor but I like to dream. And now I'm not sure where I'm going with this...if you have any input or feel like talking about your own concept ideas feel free. :thmbup1:

Hallucination 03-26-2010 02:24 AM

You sound like a pyro, have a song about arson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4vtVBoC5hQ

Darth Avlectus 03-26-2010 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darca Lar (Post 2714801)
I was looking at a candle that I lit, just watching the flames dance on the wick and for some reason started comparing it to a lightsaber. The fire on a candle sits on a wick, just as the blade of a lightsaber sits on its hilt. However, the flame is free-flowing while the lightsaber is a straight laser.

Actually if you wanted to get technical, a lightsaber is pure energy and not so much a laser; not sure if you played the Jedi Knight series at all but there are guns called Disruptors that do Physical/Optical damage that can go right through lightsaber blades. Plus if there were intractivity in beams of light we'd have a real problem with light sources clashing with one another. So it's more of plasma or fusion level energy. (And I'd assume some level of artificial gravity or of special magnetism of some high order that can manipulate energy) ;)

Honestly I always thought of the weapons in the SW universe as being laser guided particle beam weapons.

Quote:

Flames go a certain distance based on heat, but today's lasers continue to travel until something stops it.
Oh, and what of naturally dispersing and dimming out within a transparent medium? They lose power and focus as they go. Fire can be thought of as a crude form of plasma or ionization. Even electric arcs might qualify as plasma. Lasers are purely optical energy.

Quote:

Right now I feel pretty stupid thinking about something that doesn't exist, and I'm no scientific inventor but I like to dream. And now I'm not sure where I'm going with this...if you have any input or feel like talking about your own concept ideas feel free. :thmbup1:
Well, I do believe people are working on projects like this. Closest thing to a real lightsaber I ever came across is actually a plasma cutter. High Frequency arcs through a jet of gasses to cut (thin) metal is basically the description of it.

TBH I think the concept of vibro blades is much closer: Look at how we send ultrasonic vibrations through toothbrushes. How about how we have used high frequency electricity in surgical tools to create the electroknife for surgery? (Look up names Tesla and D'arsonval).

I have looked and looked for this guy I saw either on Discovery or something quite a while ago. Can't seem to find it.

The first cyber-sophisticated bionic patient.
Background: An electrical accident on a high power line cost him both his arms as he was a master electrical worker.

Anyways, so, researchers made a bionic robotic arm and hand which responded to biofeedback from his remaining nerves. Sophisticated circuitry with sensors for pain, heat, and cold. All via electronic feedback through a microcontroller system. Apparently it worked. The patient was able to control it as though it were his own--maybe not as perfect as the original thing but it was a start. I'd nver seen anything like it IRL.

A while a go also, I believe our military made a stealth cloak for a vehicle. It was displayed in popular mechanics or popular science. Something like that.

There are EMP devices out there but to the best I can tell (it's only available to serious researchers w/ lots of $$$ in most cases) it only affects electronic devices. A sort of deluge of electromagnetic frequencies that seem to mess up the insides of semiconductors and other electronic components. Applications are kind of limited.

Plasma, well, there's many kinds of plasma. Especially with electricity. Depends what you're looking for.

Anyway, yeah it's kind of cool to imagine stuff and check reality and see how close or far away we are to making something scifi a reality.

Gerevick 02-14-2011 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darca Lar (Post 2714801)
I was looking at a candle that I lit, just watching the flames dance on the wick and for some reason started comparing it to a lightsaber. The fire on a candle sits on a wick, just as the blade of a lightsaber sits on its hilt. However, the flame is free-flowing while the lightsaber is a straight laser. Flames go a certain distance based on heat, but today's lasers continue to travel until something stops it. Right now I feel pretty stupid thinking about something that doesn't exist, and I'm no scientific inventor but I like to dream. And now I'm not sure where I'm going with this...if you have any input or feel like talking about your own concept ideas feel free. :thmbup1:

This idea is well considered. Indeed, a candle light is a lightsaber that burns at a lower intensity, but the basic principle of it is the same. In small quantities, water is incinerated by the candle flame like force lightning is. Candle light is not as substantial in the sense that it can colide with another physical object, but the burn effect is the same as well.

decalibron 02-23-2011 07:01 PM

damn, GTA:SWcity, i was hoping to come in and give my point of view, but you really summed it up. i've always heard it explained as a beam of plasma level energy that is constrained due to the fact that it bends back upon itself (at the point, for anyone who isn't following) which supports your magnetism, as something would have to draw the plasma back into the hilt upon itself.

hm...and keeping with the theme of the site, this bionic arm relates fairly closely to Anakin's, albeit less "tuned" and certainly not 5x as strong as his original one.

and yes we do have stealth aircraft in the air force, they use angular construction on the ship to deflect radar, and/or coat the ship in a buttery substance to absorb said radar.

Jan Gaarni 02-24-2011 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by decalibron (Post 2768021)
damn, GTA:SWcity, i was hoping to come in and give my point of view, but you really summed it up. i've always heard it explained as a beam of plasma level energy that is constrained due to the fact that it bends back upon itself (at the point, for anyone who isn't following) which supports your magnetism, as something would have to draw the plasma back into the hilt upon itself.

That is what I've read.

The "beam" comes out the center of the hilt, and arcs back down on the outside of the core beam and into the hilt again, forming a loop.

The only time it really loses energy is when the "blade" is "shortcutted" so to speak. F.ex. when Qui-Gon sticks it into that blast door in Ep. 1, or basically any time you cut someone with it.

Gerevick 03-02-2011 02:33 PM

A candle flame extiniguishes if it is bombarded by too much water. What would put out the energy of a lightsaber?

decalibron 03-16-2011 01:01 PM

as far as i know...nothing. Plasma, which is widely considered the energy of a lightsaber, is ionized gas. an example of this is lightning, which as far as i know, can't be "put out". that being said, if it actually was plasma, these things are extremely volatile, and often very big, such as lightning, solar flares, and is EXTREMELY HOT! (lightning is often hotter than the center of the sun). if it was in fact that hot, you wouldn't be able to come within miles of it, let along hold it with a metal bar.

that being said, how was Satele Shan able to block it with her hand and the force in the Hope Trailer?

Miltiades 03-16-2011 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by decalibron (Post 2770064)
that being said, how was Satele Shan able to block it with her hand and the force in the Hope Trailer?

If you're asking for the pure scientific answer, then I can't help you there. In-universe, however, while I don't know what exactly it is, the KotOR comics showed a smiliar action when Zayne Carrick blocked a lightsaber blow with an armband of some kind.

ChAiNz.2da 03-16-2011 01:34 PM

midichlorians == magic, or at least an SPF of about a billion :xp:

Gurges-Ahter 03-16-2011 04:45 PM

In universe it's called tutaminis - the ability to absorb energy using the force. Yoda demonstrated a similar feat when he balled up the lightning and shot it back at Dooku during Ep. II.

Link

decalibron 03-16-2011 06:39 PM

wow. that's impressive that a)there's a name for it and b) you know it. but still, one would have to be able to withstand "the heat of a thousand suns".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miltiades (Post 2770067)
If you're asking for the pure scientific answer, then I can't help you there. In-universe, however, while I don't know what exactly it is, the KotOR comics showed a smiliar action when Zayne Carrick blocked a lightsaber blow with an armband of some kind.

Well to be honest, scientifically, it probably wouldn't work. but couldn't this Zayne character just be using an armband made of cortosis?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan Gaarni (Post 2768089)
The only time it really loses energy is when the "blade" is "shortcutted" so to speak. F.ex. when Qui-Gon sticks it into that blast door in Ep. 1, or basically any time you cut someone with it.

I 99% agree with you, but the energy isn't "lost" so to speak, as energy is conserved. it's dispersed, hence the excessive wounds (decapitation or amputation) of the lightsaber's target, or of the melting of huge blast doors.

Qui-Don Jorn 03-22-2011 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by decalibron (Post 2770064)
that being said, how was Satele Shan able to block it with her hand and the force in the Hope Trailer?

I have a serious problem with that.
what? Did Bioware just up and decide that lightsabers were no longer a beam of pure energy that go through anything and just start treating it as a some sort of blunt object that "glows"...and basically ignore everything that Lucas has already established about a lightsaber.
Like, "No, Vader never cut off Lukes hand with one." "Luke never cut off Vader's mech hand with one." "No, Qui-Gon Jinn never shoved one through a 3foot thick blast door made of metal."

What is the DEAL wit that anyway??
You know that saber in the "Hope" trailor would have gone clean through her hand and for that matter, her frickin chest.

Sorry, that had always bugged the crap out of me, so I had to finally vent it to you fine people.

Darth Avlectus 05-29-2011 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by decalibron (Post 2768021)
damn, GTA:SWcity, i was hoping to come in and give my point of view, but you really summed it up. i've always heard it explained as a beam of plasma level energy that is constrained due to the fact that it bends back upon itself (at the point, for anyone who isn't following) which supports your magnetism, as something would have to draw the plasma back into the hilt upon itself.

I'd say it more closely resembles controlled ionization, personally. But that's just me.

Quote:

hm...and keeping with the theme of the site, this bionic arm relates fairly closely to Anakin's, albeit less "tuned" and certainly not 5x as strong as his original one.
In due time these things develop.


Quote:

and yes we do have stealth aircraft in the air force, they use angular construction on the ship to deflect radar, and/or coat the ship in a buttery substance to absorb said radar.
Eh? I don't know about that... I'm talking about recently developed technology to make vehicles appear nearly invisible to equipment and human eyes.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan Gaarni (Post 2768089)
That is what I've read.

The "beam" comes out the center of the hilt, and arcs back down on the outside of the core beam and into the hilt again, forming a loop.

The only time it really loses energy is when the "blade" is "shortcutted" so to speak. F.ex. when Qui-Gon sticks it into that blast door in Ep. 1, or basically any time you cut someone with it.

Even so, plasma has a long way to go, then. You ever tried cutting wood or biological substance with a plasma cutter? --You'll see what I mean. :)

Though plasma "pens" for burning, etching, and engraving seem a little closer, but this is more akin to a highly energized vibrosword...or strider hiryu's tonfa lance/blade. But essentially it does at least a little more with a heated metal tip and a constant flow of high frequency/high voltage. Whereas a plasma cutter is more like a flame of lightning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by decalibron (Post 2770063)
as far as i know...nothing. Plasma, which is widely considered the energy of a lightsaber, is ionized gas.

Plasma takes on many forms. Higher forms of ionization that could be neatly controlled are more like it. I would say particle beams/accelerators, but my understanding is limited on these.

A lightsaber appears to not need a constantly flowing jet of gas or air nor a directing bit or tool. Even the air that ionizes at the focal point of a laser puse could be considered such a thing. You'll note that none of this quite 'works' for making a blade of energy.

Quote:

an example of this is lightning, which as far as i know, can't be "put out".
It's also just a short duration arc that self terminates. A device that made a constant arc would be more along these lines, but could short out, overheat, and cause any number of other undesirable phenomena. The trouble as I said above would be delivery system to give it a blade form.

The closest we have achieved is a plasma cutter which is passing a jet of gas or air through high frequency arcs to make an ionized beam. The arc can be extinguished or shorted out unfortunately.

Quote:

that being said, if it actually was plasma, these things are extremely volatile, and often very big, such as lightning, solar flares, and is EXTREMELY HOT! (lightning is often hotter than the center of the sun). if it was in fact that hot, you wouldn't be able to come within miles of it, let along hold it with a metal bar.
Very true.

Quote:

that being said, how was Satele Shan able to block it with her hand and the force in the Hope Trailer?
Force absorb? Force sheild? Tutaminis? It isn't inconceivable that if a Jedi can use it to shield from blaster bolts, such a power can also defend against lightsabers. In fact, jedi outcast essentially allowed this power for light side alignment in multiplayer mode. You'd cocoon yourself in the absorbing field and it would protect from lightsabers and blasters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerevick (Post 2768726)
A candle flame extiniguishes if it is bombarded by too much water. What would put out the energy of a lightsaber?

Some material impervious to energy bombardment. Vader fought someone who had a cortosis dagger, and when the opponent blocked Vader's lightsaber, the saber overloaded and shut down for several minutes leaving Vader to fight by other means.

decalibron 06-02-2011 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity (Post 2779964)
I'd say it more closely resembles controlled ionization, personally. But that's just me.

i can't say i know a lot about these things, but i suppose i'll have to read up on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity (Post 2779964)
Eh? I don't know about that... I'm talking about recently developed technology to make vehicles appear nearly invisible to equipment and human eyes.

really??? wow, i will certainly have to read that! my popular mechanics sub expired last year, i don't remember that article, or maybe i didn't get it. the angled stealth fighter/bomber i was talking about was the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit. Stealthed to the radar, but certainly not to the human eyes. could you tell me anything about this stealth you're talking about? i would very much like to read about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity (Post 2779964)
Even so, plasma has a long way to go, then. You ever tried cutting wood or biological substance with a plasma cutter? --You'll see what I mean. :)

again, i've never used a plasma cutter, but i see where you could run into trouble not having a conductable surface to cause an arc; it'd be over before it began, unless i'm missing the concept, which is entirely possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity (Post 2779964)
Plasma takes on many forms. Higher forms of ionization that could be neatly controlled are more like it. I would say particle beams/accelerators, but my understanding is limited on these.

again, you have outsmarted me. Plasma does indeed take on many forms, but i'll stick to my guns in the fact that most of the higher forms of ionization could pose major problems in trying to create handheld weapons that are sufficiently safe to wield. By accelerators, do you mean particle accelerators? Because i'm not sure how one could create a beam, unless maybe you were accelerating a bunch of ionized particles around and around to create the beam, which you'd run into problems trying to control their path. In terms of particle beams, you would again run into problems keeping them blade length, rather than going until they ran out of energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity (Post 2779964)
It's also just a short duration arc that self terminates. A device that made a constant arc would be more along these lines, but could short out, overheat, and cause any number of other undesirable phenomena. The trouble as I said above would be delivery system to give it a blade form.

i completely agree. i was listing some things that wouldn't be shorted out or overheat (probably because they're so hot), but then you get into the realm where they can't be controlled into a blade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity (Post 2779964)
In fact, jedi outcast essentially allowed this power for light side alignment in multiplayer mode. You'd cocoon yourself in the absorbing field and it would protect from lightsabers and blasters.

i do believe i remember this power. i suppose when you think about it comparison with the rest of the SW universe, it really isn't unbelievable at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity (Post 2779964)
Some material impervious to energy bombardment. Vader fought someone who had a cortosis dagger, and when the opponent blocked Vader's lightsaber, the saber overloaded and shut down for several minutes leaving Vader to fight by other means.

really? i know that cortosis makes lightsaber-resistant objects, but to have a blade of cortosis blade overload a lightsaber? how come this doesn't happen everytime someone fights a lightsaber with a cortosis blade? i mean, i don't remember when this happened, so i'll take your word for it, but that just seems wierd, as well as a little convenient.

Darth Avlectus 06-24-2011 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by decalibron (Post 2780325)
i can't say i know a lot about these things, but i suppose i'll have to read up on it.

It's entertaining but the technical stuff can be a hurdle for casual readers, or even learning hobbyists.


Quote:

really??? wow, i will certainly have to read that! my popular mechanics sub expired last year, i don't remember that article, or maybe i didn't get it. the angled stealth fighter/bomber i was talking about was the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit. Stealthed to the radar, but certainly not to the human eyes. could you tell me anything about this stealth you're talking about? i would very much like to read about it.
I do believe it was in an issue of either popular science or popular mechanics within the last 5-10 years. Wasn't completely invisible to the eyes iirc, but electro-optically it supposedly had an AI to mimic transparency, albeit with some shadowing and lensing.

Here's something similar to which I referred.
http://www.defensereview.com/is-invi...ere-right-now/

Quote:

again, i've never used a plasma cutter,
You're missing out, pal. It's fun. 'Nuff said.

Find a metalworker with one. Maybe do bring a piece of scrap metal you want to cut. And it never hurts to offer them a little something in returned for their troubles--if they're not the charitable types. Your best bet, free or not, is to claim it's for an "educational experience" to satisfy a certain "curiosity". I'm next to positive there is someone out there willing to let you have a hand at it.

Quote:

but i see where you could run into trouble not having a conductable surface to cause an arc; it'd be over before it began, unless i'm missing the concept, which is entirely possible.
No, I think you get it. Has to be conductive if you are clipping the grounding clamp to it. Think of the unit as a power supply. It's basically just a big circuit to complete. You have the arc torch as an output and the ground clamp as the return. Though the high frequency goes through air to ground by itself, the metal "work piece" that is at ground is merely another part of the circuit for physical contact.

Obviously the metal poece to be worked is not essential to make the circuit work, but the purpose of it is to be "worked" by the arc torch. Similar to how a battery lights a bulb, or a ballast lights a fluorescent tube.

Quote:

again, you have outsmarted me.
Nah. No I didn't--wasn't my intent. I bet you could probably outsmart me in a field of your expertise. :)

Quote:

Plasma does indeed take on many forms, but i'll stick to my guns in the fact that most of the higher forms of ionization could pose major problems in trying to create handheld weapons that are sufficiently safe to wield.
At the very least probably very big and heavy. And then there's requirements of feeding and power...and obtaining supplies, and prices. Very nasty can o worms. :D

Quote:

By accelerators, do you mean particle accelerators?<snip>
yes

Quote:

In terms of particle beams, you would again run into problems keeping them blade length, rather than going until they ran out of energy.
Came to the same conclusion.

Quote:

i completely agree. i was listing some things that wouldn't be shorted out or overheat (probably because they're so hot), but then you get into the realm where they can't be controlled into a blade.
Only the realm of real life (only as *we* know it) where it hasn't been realized. Yet. ;)
Quote:

i do believe i remember this power. i suppose when you think about it comparison with the rest of the SW universe, it really isn't unbelievable at all.
:cool:

Quote:

really? i know that cortosis makes lightsaber-resistant objects, but to have a blade of cortosis blade overload a lightsaber? how come this doesn't happen everytime someone fights a lightsaber with a cortosis blade? i mean, i don't remember when this happened, so i'll take your word for it, but that just seems wierd, as well as a little convenient.
*cough*
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...rtosisduel.jpg
I rest my case.

decalibron 06-28-2011 01:44 AM

How very interesting...thanks for sharing all of this with me! I'll be sure to search around for a plasma cutter to toy around with. You're a funny guy, and that was an enlightening conversation. I like how you closed it off with visual proof. Very cool. What comic was that in? I can't say i've read much in the way of SW comics, but i'm slowly and steadily working my way through the books, I absolutely love them. Darth Bane especially, but i recently read some fate of the jedi, those were good, and i read Crosscurrent, which i really enjoyed.

Darth Avlectus 07-18-2011 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by decalibron (Post 2783440)
How very interesting...thanks for sharing all of this with me!

You're welcome. :)

Quote:

I'll be sure to search around for a plasma cutter to toy around with.
It'll be fun. :dev11:

Quote:

You're a funny guy, and that was an enlightening conversation.
Well thank you for the compliment.
Quote:

I like how you closed it off with visual proof. Very cool. What comic was that in?
A ...fairly recent one I'm pretty sure. Took place between ep.'s 3 &4. It's all in the delivery and presentation, good man.

You might look at the Legacy comics, which are ~130 years after the battle of yavin.

Quote:

I can't say i've read much in the way of SW comics, but i'm slowly and steadily working my way through the books, I absolutely love them. Darth Bane especially, but i recently read some fate of the jedi, those were good, and i read Crosscurrent, which i really enjoyed.
Ah yes. I own and have read the Bane trilogy and couldn't agree more. Have read some of the clone wars novels. Not too interested with Luke and the new jedi order admittedly, but I suppose if one book or another came my way I'd read it.

I'm anticipating the upcoming Revan novel to see if some of my predictions were right.

I'm just sort of working on Knight Errant as I get around to it.

decalibron 07-18-2011 02:47 AM

you know, the new jedi order isn't as cool imo, either. i mean, part of what makes them so cool is how they're revered, they're mystical, and they aren't like normal people, etc. then when they're all having kids and starting families, like normal people, it just loses so much of the awesome-ness (not a word). I'm reading Deception right now, and i've got the Darth Maul series on hold. I also bought those e-books about the ancient sith for the kindle, so i'll hit those soon enough. I haven't caught word of this Revan novel, could you tell me about it or point me to info about it? i'll be sure to read it when it comes out.

Darth Avlectus 07-26-2011 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by decalibron (Post 2785096)
awesome-ness (not a word).

I don't think the internetz care. :p

I agree, though, that in making these characters someone for the average person to relate to, it does lose its mystical edge.

Quote:

I haven't caught word of this Revan novel, could you tell me about it or point me to info about it? i'll be sure to read it when it comes out.
Coming Nov 15th this year, about 1 month before SWTOR's currently scheduled release. I'd go into details but I think links will be quicker. :devsmoke:

http://lucasforums.com/showthread.ph...97#post2786397

http://www.starwarsmmo.net/news/reva...-art-revealed/

decalibron 07-27-2011 12:56 PM

Awesome! Just saw it on the Forums, Cover art was revealed, checked it out, it looks amazing. Can't wait to read, Revan was always one of my favorite characters. While we're on the subject of books, have you read the E-Book series about the ancient sith? I got them for free on Amazon a little while back, and I'm getting ready to work my way through them, they seem pretty interesting.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:32 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.