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-   -   Russian subway bombed (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=203288)

jawathehutt 03-29-2010 11:45 AM

Russian subway bombed
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_russia_subway_blast
Its a shame that the press is so damned biased. Where was this outrage when hospitals were bombed by the Russians. There are very few "terrorist" groups I think have legitimate agendas but after the **** Russia has given them the Chechnyans are one of them. I don't support the bombing of subways and such but honestly, talk about hypocracy, we support Taiwan's independence from China yet we condemn another area that has been oppressed for years as "terrorists" because that is their last hope for improving their condition.

Samnmax221 03-29-2010 01:20 PM

http://i44.tinypic.com/1rdsw0.jpg

jrrtoken 03-29-2010 05:46 PM

I like how every other Western nation is in ABSOLUTE PANIC, seeing as Chechen rebels will obviously fly all the way to NYC to bomb a Metro car.

Salzella 03-29-2010 06:16 PM

I think it's slightly bizarre how some sections of the press have led with the headline "Female Suicide Bombers etc etc". As if somehow the fact they were women changes the game somehow :raise:

Samnmax221 03-29-2010 07:09 PM

Russia should be balkanized and Putin should be drowned in feces.

JediAthos 03-29-2010 07:44 PM

I don't think I've seen anything detailing panic here in the States...unless I've missed something. President Obama's unannounced visit to Afghanistan seems to have made just as much news on this side of the pond.

Plus, at the same time, the Chechin(sp.) rebels are pissed at Russia right? The seem unconcerned with the rest of the world so I don't think there will be any worries about them bombing anything here.

Roller123 03-29-2010 08:06 PM

Islamic extremists are pissed at everyone not islamic so could bomb just about everything. London(check), Paris(check), Madrid(check), Moscow(check). New York City is as much a target as anything else. Happy Twin Tower Day(check)

jawathehutt 03-29-2010 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roller123 (Post 2715438)
Islamic extremists are pissed at everyone not islamic so could bomb just about everything. London(check), Paris(check), Madrid(check), Moscow(check). New York City is as much a target as anything else. Happy Twin Tower Day(check)

I have a simple suggestion. Before you post about terrorism ever again, learn something about it. Terrorists are not all part of some evil mega faction led by Osama bin Cobra Commander. True Chechnyans do have connections to Al Quida but this is largely because they've been screwed over by every other nation. Chechnyan rebels want independence from Russia, not to murder every Christian, which is also not the goal of most of the Islamic Extremists, however in the interest of staying on topic Ill ignore your lack of knowledge on that subject for now. Attacking the US or really anywhere but Russia would do nothing at all for the Chechnyans, it would be like if during the US Revolutionary War the US sent a couple of ships to go shoot up the coast of Norway just because.

mimartin 03-29-2010 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawathehutt (Post 2715441)
Chechnyan rebels want independence from Russia, not to murder every Christian, which is also not the goal of most of the Islamic Extremists, however in the interest of staying on topic Ill ignore your lack of knowledge on that subject for now.

Sound hauntingly familiar to the Mujaihideen battle with the Soviet Union and we all know how that turned out.

I do believe the Chechens have been wrong. I understand their desire for an independent nation. That still does not help me understand murdering innocent people. I donít care who is doing the killing or the reason behind it, terrorism is still terrorism and nothing more.

Roller123 03-29-2010 09:22 PM

jawathehutt
You should be the last person talking, making statements like "Taiwan wants independence from China".(Taiwan is China, just different government in case you didnt know) Clearly you think of Chechens, Palestinians, Osama Bin Laden etc as some kind of "freedom fighters" and openly support their methods of blowing up civilian population. Im not exactly sure what to think of such outrageous ignorance. Go bother someone else with your "insights". snip

Web Rider 03-29-2010 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samnmax221 (Post 2715423)
Russia should be balkanized and Putin should be drowned in feces.

While I don't care much for Putin, a balkanized Russia would be the first sign of WWIII. The power vacuum from it's breakup would be literally, earth shattering.

Totenkopf 03-29-2010 10:10 PM

Yes, and a fair amount of that would be the noise of China moving into Siberia. Afterall, some 50 million +/- chinese youths have no marital options and it ain't like the PRC has no bodies to spare if they feel aggressive. But yeah, I'm not opposed to the "Putin solution".

jawathehutt 03-29-2010 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin (Post 2715443)
Sound hauntingly familiar to the Mujaihideen battle with the Soviet Union and we all know how that turned out.

I do believe the Chechens have been wrong. I understand their desire for an independent nation. That still does not help me understand murdering innocent people. I donít care who is doing the killing or the reason behind it, terrorism is still terrorism and nothing more.

I don't think they should be killing innocents either nor do I think certain governments located in a city that starts with M and ends with oscow should be firing ballistic missiles at hospitals and obliterating cities without any regard to innocents. Two subway trains is pretty insignificant compared to a city.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Roller123 (Post 2715444)
jawathehutt
You should be the last person talking, making statements like "Taiwan wants independence from China".(Taiwan is China, just different government in case you didnt know)

Haha and Tibet is supportive of China controlling them too right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roller123 (Post 2715444)
Clearly you think of Chechens, Palestinians, Osama Bin Laden etc as some kind of "freedom fighters" and openly support their methods of blowing up civilian population.

Hmmm no don't think I ever said that, I said Chechynans are one of the only "terrorist" groups that I think has a legitimate reason to be pissed off. And I pretty specifically said I dont think blowing civilians to kingdom come is a grand idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roller123 (Post 2715444)
Im not exactly sure what to think of such outrageous ignorance. snip

You could start up reading some literature on the situation that shows both sides of the story, not just western media that is written with about as much fairness as a 24 hour news channel opinion show. Try Inside the Jihad or Terrorism Inc, both manage to get over the organization of evil image we have of anything associated with the word terrorism.

Samnmax221 03-29-2010 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Web Rider (Post 2715447)
While I don't care much for Putin, a balkanized Russia would be the first sign of WWIII. The power vacuum from it's breakup would be literally, earth shattering.

They want to go on playing like they're the Russian Empire/Soviet Union. It's either that or forcibly destroying almost all of the the military hardware they have.

mimartin 03-29-2010 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawathehutt (Post 2715456)
I don't think they should be killing innocents either nor do I think certain governments located in a city that starts with M and ends with oscow should be firing ballistic missiles at hospitals and obliterating cities without any regard to innocents. Two subway trains is pretty insignificant compared to a city.

Could not agree more, thus is why I wrote, " terrorism is still terrorism and nothing more."


Quote:

Originally Posted by jawathehutt (Post 2715456)
Hmmm no don't think I ever said that, I said Chechynans are one of the only "terrorist" groups that I think has a legitimate reason to be pissed off.

Don't know if I agree with that. I can see why the Middle East could be a little upset with the west. The entire hypocrisy of the U.S. preaching freedom, yet supporting dictators for no other reasons than they were the enemy of our enemy and they have oil seems like a just reason to be a little upset. Supporting the Mujahedeen when they were killing Soviets, but then after the Soviet withdraw ending all support also seems like a valid reason to be a little perturbed. There are valid reasons for people to be upset, that however does not give anyone a valid reason to practice terrorism.

Salzella 03-30-2010 07:18 AM

The Afghanistan example is an odd one as terrorism was never a large part of that, largely because the armies of both sides were causing more than enough terror by themselves. I wouldn't really directly compare the two either because whereas America is blameless (i think) for Chechnya, they are most certainly not blameless for the slaughter in Afghanistan between all sides; one of the most cynical instances of wargaming on their part you will ever see.

Tommycat 03-30-2010 08:35 AM

While I can agree that there can be righteous anger, there is never an acceptable point to target innocent civilians. No matter how vile the government of that country may be, an attack targeting civilians will never have justification in my book. If you are targeting the military or government, I will listen to your justification. Heck I may even agree. But as soon as you start targeting civilians you are nothing but a cowardly piece of (explicative for feces) and I will NEVER listen to your justification, or lend any credence to your complaints.

target the government and you're a freedom fighter. Target civilians, and you're just a murderous piece of (explicative for feces)

Sabretooth 03-30-2010 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roller123 (Post 2715444)
jawathehutt
You should be the last person talking, making statements like "Taiwan wants independence from China".(Taiwan is China, just different government in case you didnt know)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawathehutt (Post 2715456)
Haha and Tibet is supportive of China controlling them too right?

Since you're both having fun treading on each other's poorly worded technicalities of The Taiwan Situation, I'd like to clarify for the both of you that:

Taiwan (Republic of China) and China (People's Republic of China) both lay claim to Chinese territory including at least, mainland China and the island of Taiwan. Taiwan functions independently of the People's Republic and the PR functions independently of Taiwan. They are rogue nations according to each other.

Despite this, the People's Republic of China, covering the mainland and having a vast population is considered the de facto China, while the Republic of China, having little actual territorial control beyond the island of Taiwan, is referred to as Taiwan.

Yay for breaking arguments.

mimartin 03-30-2010 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salzella (Post 2715497)
The Afghanistan example is an odd one as terrorism was never a large part of that.

How did I use the Mujahedeen as an example of terrorist? I didn’t. I used them as an example of a people that wanted freedom from the Soviet Union (aka Russia). A group that at one time only wanted to kill Soviets, but later splintered and turns on the west.

However, both the Soviet Army and the Mujahedeen practiced what anyone outside of the Bush Administration Lawyers would consider torture and terrorism. That was just not part of my example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salzella (Post 2715497)
I wouldn't really directly compare the two either because whereas America is blameless (i think) for Chechnya, they are most certainly not blameless for the slaughter in Afghanistan between all sides; one of the most cynical instances of wargaming on their part you will ever see.

Hence my reason for bringing up Afghanistan. The United States made a terrible mistake in Afghanistan and should learn from that mistake and not have a repeat performance in Chechnya. If we were to decide to help, then the U.S. must be fully committed to not only helping free the people, but supporting them after the bloodshed is over. However, since the U.S. attention span is 15 minutes at best, it is better that we stay away from this. This battle has been going on for several hundred years and I see no end in sight.

Totenkopf 03-30-2010 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawathehutt (Post 2715352)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_russia_subway_blast
Its a shame that the press is so damned biased. Where was this outrage when hospitals were bombed by the Russians. There are very few "terrorist" groups I think have legitimate agendas but after the **** Russia has given them the Chechnyans are one of them. I don't support the bombing of subways and such but honestly, talk about hypocracy, we support Taiwan's independence from China yet we condemn another area that has been oppressed for years as "terrorists" because that is their last hope for improving their condition.

Well, after Beslan, I'm not so sure many people would agree they're not terrorists. Unless you wish to assert that was some kind of Russian false flag operation to poison the well against the Chechens......

Darth Avlectus 03-30-2010 11:23 AM

OH yes, let's all just target whoever we can now. Grandma, the baby, little moe, cliff, tom with the gimpy leg.

If nothing else I hope this gets Russia to pledge to go after the extremists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabretooth (Post 2715507)
Since you're both having fun treading on each other's poorly worded technicalities of The Taiwan Situation, I'd like to clarify for the both of you that:

Taiwan (Republic of China) and China (People's Republic of China) both lay claim to Chinese territory including at least, mainland China and the island of Taiwan. Taiwan functions independently of the People's Republic and the PR functions independently of Taiwan. They are rogue nations according to each other.

Despite this, the People's Republic of China, covering the mainland and having a vast population is considered the de facto China, while the Republic of China, having little actual territorial control beyond the island of Taiwan, is referred to as Taiwan.

Yay for breaking arguments.

Thank you. I raise a mug of beersarsaparilla to you.

Tommycat 03-30-2010 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity (Post 2715532)
OH yes, let's all just target whoever we can now. Grandma, the baby, little moe, cliff, tom with the gimpy leg.

I told ya, My leg isn't gimpy... I just twisted my ankle

@mimartin: That's part of the problem with us getting out of Iraq. Not to steer too far off course, but if we were to just up and leave as some would have us do, we'd face a similar threat later. Of course some would say it would have been better not to go in there in the first place, but.... can't change the past... only rewrite it.

Roller123 03-30-2010 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabretooth (Post 2715507)
Since you're both having fun treading on each other's poorly worded technicalities of The Taiwan Situation, I'd like to clarify for the both of you that:.

No, unfortunately you too are wrong. China is China, PRC is PRC, ROC is ROC. Saying that Taiwan wants independence from China is the same as saying that South Korea wants independence from Korea. (or in your case that South Korea is Korea). Neither does make sense. Common people ofc may call PRC "China". They also call Beijing Peking. Ok enough with offtopic.

Arcesious 03-30-2010 01:22 PM

Just some context on the Russia-Chechnya issue - The Chechen-Russian conflict starts from way back in the Caucasian war. Russia was going through a stage of considerable imperialism and went to take some territory in the Caucasian mountains, Chechnya. As with many colonies subjected to imperialism, it was unfair and caused a lot of problems, including violation of right to freedom of religion at the time.

Later you get the 2 Chechen wars as Chechya wants independence from Russia. The first war ends in a treaty and Russia starts to act nice to Chechnya, giving economic aid. But Chechyna spends the money unwisely and gives it to its warlords, destroying its economy. Later on there's some terrorism in Russia and the 2nd Chechen war happens as Russia gets mad, lashing back in a brutal military operation.

So Russia comes back, gets control back of Chechnya (installing within in a pro-Moscow government), and now they're trying to negotiate again. Ultimately Chechnya wants to be independent from Russia, but I think that the country is too unstable to be able to secede from Russia yet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

Sabretooth 03-30-2010 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roller123 (Post 2715550)
No, unfortunately you too are wrong. China is China, PRC is PRC, ROC is ROC. Saying that Taiwan wants independence from China is the same as saying that South Korea wants independence from Korea. (or in your case that South Korea is Korea). Neither does make sense. Common people ofc may call PRC "China". They also call Beijing Peking. Ok enough with offtopic.

I am not antagonising your argument. I don't agree to that silly statement about Taiwan wanting independence form anyone. After decades of military and political bullying from the PRC, the ROC has settled to call it Taiwan,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki
On September 30, 2007, the ruling Democratic Progressive Party approved a resolution asserting separate identity from China and called for the enactment of a new constitution for a "normal country". It also called for general use of "Taiwan" as the island's name, without abolishing its formal name, the Republic of China.

And it's no secret that the PRC is widely recognised, including in the United Nations, as China. Ergo, the PRC is China, the ROC is Taiwan.

This is not the case in the Korea situation, where while North Korea claims all of Korea, this claim is not internationally recognised. South Korea does not claim North Korean territory.

mimartin 03-30-2010 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommycat (Post 2715547)
@mimartin: That's part of the problem with us getting out of Iraq.

There is a difference between helping someone out and over staying your welcome. $714,719,392,956. U.S. dollars, over 4,287 American Soldiers lives and another 30,000 plus U.S. wounded is hardly what I would call cutting and running. The problem with installing a democracy is eventually you have to leave it up to the people to what they want from their government.

Tommycat 03-30-2010 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin (Post 2715560)
There is a difference between helping someone out and over staying your welcome. $714,719,392,956. U.S. dollars, over 4,287 American Soldiers lives and another 30,000 plus U.S. wounded is hardly what I would call cutting and running. The problem with installing a democracy is eventually you have to leave it up to the people to what they want from their government.

You misunderstand my intentions here. I fully agree we need to get out. But more to pointing that we need to make it stable first. The region would probably have been best if we hadn't been there. So in essence I agree with your Chechen proposal. But if we pull out without making sure that Iraq is stable, we not only violate the GC, but also risk Iraq turning into another Afghanistan. And to go in with high morals and good intentions to save teh Chechyns might leave us with another Iraq, where we're stuck cleaning up.

And some perspective... in 4 years of WWII we lost over 400,000. The number of deaths due to the Iraq war averages out to about 2 deaths per day. Vietnam was a full 13 times that(not including the MIA). The Korean was around 45 per day. The Civil war was around 600 per day. All told 4000+ is pretty low for a war this long. Not that I like to hear of deaths of fellow service members, but it seems that some have lost perspective of how relatively few deaths there have been.

Of course this is all tangental to the conversation, so feel free to cut where needed.

urluckyday 03-30-2010 06:09 PM

Just a question out of pure curiosity...is this the first time a woman has suicide bombed a civilian target?

jrrtoken 03-30-2010 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urluckyday (Post 2715606)
Just a question out of pure curiosity...is this the first time a woman has suicide bombed a civilian target?

No. It's more frequent in Palestine, Pakistan, Iraq, etc, but not in the West, which is why everyone was in a state of disbelief. This thing happens on a near-monthly basis in Iraq and Pakistan, and usually results in more civilian casualties, particularly when mosques are targeted, but, again, why care about them? :¬:

Still, I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I'm afraid to even ask. :confused:

Liverandbacon 03-30-2010 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Totenkopf (Post 2715518)
Well, after Beslan, I'm not so sure many people would agree they're not terrorists. Unless you wish to assert that was some kind of Russian false flag operation to poison the well against the Chechens......

Beslan was the first thing to jump in my mind when I read the opening post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawathehutt (Post 2715352)
talk about hypocracy, we support Taiwan's independence from China yet we condemn another area that has been oppressed for years as "terrorists" because that is their last hope for improving their condition.

Well, as soon as Taiwan takes a school full of children hostage and kills a large number of them, yeah I'll call it hypocritical. However, Taiwan's been pretty peaceful in their pursuit of guaranteed independence. The Chechens target civilians, not the government (even if they targeted gov. targets, but there were collateral civilian casualties, I'd be more charitable), moving them over the line from "freedom fighters" to terrorist ****heads.

Web Rider 03-31-2010 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samnmax221 (Post 2715460)
They want to go on playing like they're the Russian Empire/Soviet Union. It's either that or forcibly destroying almost all of the the military hardware they have.

So what? Start a war to prevent a war? Didn't you um just, START A WAR? So they want to play little Soviet Union. Who cares. It's not like a sovereign nation isn't allowed to be ya know, sovereign. And even if you're going to start talking about them playing around in other countries. Hey, guess what, we're not one to talk as we do that all the time.

Countries to be concerned about playing little empires? Try China, as they actually have the manpower and warpower to do something about it.

Russia's got all the might of a 10th-grade DnD nerd.

Tommycat 03-31-2010 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Web Rider (Post 2715763)
Russia's got all the might of a 10th-grade DnD nerd.

Pffffff... That's so insulting....
Maybe a 9th grader, but not a 10th grader...

Darth Avlectus 04-09-2010 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samnmax221 (Post 2715460)
They want to go on playing like they're the Russian Empire/Soviet Union. It's either that or forcibly destroying almost all of the the military hardware they have.

That could prove to be quite a large number of hardware over quite an expanse of area, no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Web Rider (Post 2715763)
Russia's got all the might of a 10th-grade DnD nerd.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Don't they have about 10X the number of Tactical nukes as the U.S.? Sure they could be bluffing but still...their military operations aren't exactly something to thumb your nose at, quality wise. They may not have much economy because of it--or so I'm told. They may not have nearly the man power as china, but I would not underestimate their hardware or technology.

Drunkside 04-09-2010 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity (Post 2717565)
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Don't they have about 10X the number of Tactical nukes as the U.S.? Sure they could be bluffing but still...their military operations aren't exactly something to thumb your nose at, quality wise. They may not have much economy because of it--or so I'm told. They may not have nearly the man power as china, but I would not underestimate their hardware or technology.

If they are bluffing, its not about them claiming to have more nukes than they do you know... And they do have the second largest military budget in the world, and they do not spend it on useless toys like the number 1.

Det. Bart Lasiter 04-09-2010 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drunkside (Post 2717587)
If they are bluffing, its not about them claiming to have more nukes than they do you know... And they do have the second largest military budget in the world, and they do not spend it on useless toys like the number 1.

yeah but the us has the largest military budget by a wide margin, to the point where we should take ourselves out of the rankings so we don't **** up the scale of any charts or graphs people make out of data like that

urluckyday 04-10-2010 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PastramiX (Post 2715626)
No. It's more frequent in Palestine, Pakistan, Iraq, etc, but not in the West, which is why everyone was in a state of disbelief. This thing happens on a near-monthly basis in Iraq and Pakistan, and usually results in more civilian casualties, particularly when mosques are targeted, but, again, why care about them? :¨:

Still, I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I'm afraid to even ask. :confused:

I'm not trying to get at anything...I was just curious...b/c they were making a big deal out of her being a woman, that's all.

vanir 05-11-2010 09:36 AM

Chechnya applied for UN recognition as an independent (sovereign) state was was refused. The reason is because it is the Kuwait of Russia. It is the Russian oil field. The Chechens only applied for independent status because a number of local community villages want to claim the oil is theirs and not Russia's. The Chechens are not an independent peoples which may historically be regarded as a state, like the Georgians or the Ukrainians or the Moldavians. Chechnya is like Abkhazia. It's just some locals who are using the opportunity of soviet collapse to make a grab for as much fiscal assets as they can get their hands on.

For the Abkhazians it is the Georgian Navy and Black Sea ports, which is roughly half the economy of the entire nation and more than half its military hardware in dollar value (Georgia has no airforce or armour, but it does have some missile-frigates that are very valuable and handles a lot of oil shipping).

For the Chechens it is the Russian oil fields, the same ones Hitler tried to get his hands on. Grozny, the central Russian oil capital is the capital of "Chechnya" which is just a territorial region in the transCaucasus district of Southern Russia, it is not a historically independent state. You get the actual country of Russia itself, you go to the bottom of the map where the Caucasus mountains are and while you're still inside the country's historical millenia old borders, you're in Grozny.

The place wasn't named for its people it was the other way around. It's just local villagers trying to steal oil, Russian citizens ergo criminals ergo terrorists, and digging their heels in because the region is right next to northern Georgia and Georgians are kinda tough nuts (a lot of them are Gherkas). So when they say "Chechen rebels" they're talking about Russian nationals working in conjuction with Georgian criminals all working together as a terrorist organisation whose objective it is to rationalise the stealing of the Russian oil fields by claiming a new independent state. And neither the UN nor EU are having any part of it. But NATO is still diametrically opposed to the CIS so every time Russian peacekeepers head into the mountains MSNBC media says they're invading Georgia.

That's what Chechnya is about.

Arcesious 05-11-2010 12:37 PM

I not too long ago in this thread made a post explaining the history of the situation, but I did not realize that Chechnya was rich in oil, so I now sympathize with them. Its unfortunate that they resort to terrorism. Don't bomb the subway and kill innocent civilians. The governments and big oil corporations are to blame. Murder is always bad, but if they have to bomb a place, they should bomb the capital building in Moscow, not a civilian-filled subway. The oil field thing explains a lot. Money is the cause of too much death.

Edit: Reading above post, I might want to revise this post, but I'm not sure. Could you provide proof for what you said in the last paragraph of your above post?

vanir 05-14-2010 12:11 AM

My last paragraph is necessarily speculative, an existentialist conclusion of the first three. It would be counterproductive if it belied in any way the nature of the first three paragraphs.

Just for interest sake jump on GoogleEarth and zoom in on Georgia and Grozny. Sometimes obvious things like where countries are tend to clarify media terminology, for example "policing action" translates to "oil concerns" when you look up where/what Kuwait is, the context completely altered. Also search the web for material on the Georgian conflict.

The Russians in Georgia and Chechnya are very much like NATO in the Middle East and Central Asia, there is a lot of terminology floating around for what are basically very simple elements being involved.

Also keep in mind Chechnya is not a nation. The word in Russian means much the same thing as saying "Midwest" in America. It's just a region in southern Russia proper, it is in the foothills on the Russian side of the Caucasus overlooking the Kuban peninsula. Chechnya is a rural area, except for the oil field (Grozny) which was built by the Soviets back during industrialisation. Calling people who live in the Chechnya region Chechens is just like calling some Americans southerners. Giving the "Chechens" the oil field is like giving Texan farmers Fort Knox to the exclusion of the rest of the US. The "war" in Chechnya is like Texan farmers claiming Fort Knox is theirs (I dunno where Fort Knox is, Texas? you get the idea anyway).

That's why the Russian Parliament, even though it takes great exception to the Kremlin's military policies also agrees wholeheartedly they are not partisans, but are just criminals.

Russian Parliament on the other hand considers Tblisi-Georgians to be more partisan than terrorist, whilst the Kremlin regards them as terrorist. Unfortunately the Kremlin controls the CIS militaries.

There is a great disparity on the status of Tblisi based Georgian government in Russian politics, and Georgia is an independent nation, capable of demonstrating a distinct and valid cultural history which is unique and independent of the old Russian Empire of which it was a part (and thus was absorbed into the Soviet Union). Not true of Chechnya.
Georgia would've been a part of Turkey if it wasn't for inherent, culturally biased religious differences, whilst Armenia would've been part of Iran.

In terms of peoples, the Kuban is Cossack, the Caucasus Gherka and the south side of the mountains Turk. Head north or west of the Don basin and you get Slav.



edit. Only after these points are clearly observed, then it can be stated the Chechens have a valid case regarding state welfare and their abandonment in terms of infrastructure and support as a Russian rural region and industrial operation. Chechens live like a third world nation and it is a crime, seriously walking around Chechnya is like walking around Sierra Leone in Africa. Only corruption could leave an entire national region in such a state unless the entire nation was bankrupt, which it isn't.

But part of their problem is actually something most Americans would overwhelmingly support on the Russian side. It is about privatisation of the oil industry, where Chechens are effectively a welfare state who just happen to live where the oil is. Since industry is no longer state controlled, the Chechen local economy has reverted back to pre-industrial rural despite being surrounded by delapidated modern ammenities (I'm not even sure if they have a power station anymore). Under the Soviet system Chechens received community dividends of any production in their region. Simple example, schooling and services were provided by the State with coupon bonuses for being where the oil is; now they have to pay for their own schools and power and the only people mining oil there are private companies who bring their own labour. The Chechens shut this down, the military responded.

If it was in America most yanks would just say, "Get a job," and would stand in line to sign up in the military that shoots the Chechens. Personally I think it is a state responsibility to ensure a minimum living standard of all citizens and regions, which is the Chechen argument. Like you I don't agree that justifies murder, but I'm not there to see just how desperate the situation is for the man on the ground.
People have been talking about Russian atrocities in Chechnya for some time, I don't doubt it.


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