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-   -   TSL'S Story Being "Cancelled"? (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=204434)

Tysyacha 06-23-2010 10:03 PM

TSL'S Story Being "Cancelled"?
 
Why is LucasArts trying to erase the story of THE SITH LORDS and pretend that its events never happened (you know, with Kreia, the Exile, and so on)?

Det. Bart Lasiter 06-23-2010 10:12 PM

wat

Tysyacha 06-23-2010 10:13 PM

I know, it sounds ridiculous, but I did read some post that said TSL was being "retconned".

Ehhh?

Ctrl Alt Del 06-23-2010 10:15 PM

wat

jrrtoken 06-23-2010 10:16 PM

It's more like "ignored" than "refuted".

Tysyacha 06-23-2010 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by TriggerGod
Remember how Bioware was making this MMO set in the KOTOR era? Yeah, they're still making it. And retconning Obsidian's work on TSL.
Someone remind me what's being "retconned" again?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

see? see? I'm not crazy after all...:P

Dr. Makaveli 06-23-2010 10:29 PM

Well, the only parallel I see is that Bioware only did K1 and not TSL, so maybe they'd rather use their own work? :S

Past that, I don't really know why they'd ignore TSL.

Sabretooth 06-24-2010 12:35 AM

Sheesh, stop being so naive. It was written by Obsidian, which means that it was a complex and too experimental a story for Star Wars. It did not involve your standard BioWare archetype characters, had no party-that-goes-happy-and-then-lucky adventure, and did not involve any "epic" events or music.

In BioWarean philosophy, it's a sucky story and so BioWare is going to do what it does best: tell the Dragon Age/Mass Effect story again, in a space opera envirionment.

Darth Avlectus 06-24-2010 12:37 AM

It's all LA's work anyways...so it's actually their decision to ignore it I think.

Heaven forbid anything other than Vader was ever a threat to all life in the Galaxy. :rolleyes:

Shem 06-24-2010 02:33 AM

If it's "officially" true, I'm not at all shocked based on what has happened so far in the development of TOR.

Astrotoy7 06-24-2010 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabretooth (Post 2734183)
tell the Dragon Age/Mass Effect story again, in a space opera envirionment.

There are red headed French lesbians in TOR??? AWESOMEZ :thmbup1:

mtfbwya

ChAiNz.2da 06-24-2010 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrotoy7 (Post 2734210)
There are red headed French lesbians in TOR??? AWESOMEZ :thmbup1:

mtfbwya

* pre-orders ToR *

Sabretooth 06-24-2010 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrotoy7 (Post 2734210)
There are red headed French lesbians in TOR??? AWESOMEZ :thmbup1:

Except they're Corellian and red-skinned Twi'Leks. It's called moral depth.

Seikan 06-24-2010 10:17 AM

Too bad... I liked the TSL story, even if it wasn't the clearer story, and that TSL is half completed, but the story was original, I liked Kreia, and the fact of question the jedi's wisdom, I always think that the jedi philosophy has a lot of wrong points, so the Kreias philosophy of exploring both ways, etc, and how she kill them, and what she say then, I have always liked kreia, even if she's so annoying every time with her "no! don't do that!", "why have you done that", but as long as she don't start questionning my actions I like her x)

Endorenna 06-24-2010 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tysyacha (Post 2734148)
Why is LucasArts trying to erase the story of THE SITH LORDS and pretend that its events never happened (you know, with Kreia, the Exile, and so on)?

Bioware on TSL:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobChestney
Hey Folks, always nice to see the healthy debate sparked by the Timeline pieces. I love Star Wars history and particularly anything relating to KotOR. Even though KotOR 2 was developed by another developer, lots of folks at BioWare played and enjoyed it, including myself. If you look closely within the game, you will find several references to events or characters from KotOR 2, and we absolutely treat it as canon. I will also say that there have been discussions about the final fate of the Exile, who was indeed a woman according to the canon.

When outlining the Timeline series, though, we skipped over the events of KotOR2 for a few reasons:

(SPOILER ALERT if you haven't played KotOR 2)

Essentially, what happened in KotOR 2 is that a few years after Revan disappeared, a new trinity of Sith Lords materialized and drove the Jedi into hiding. Kreia (aka Darth Traya) sought out the Jedi Exile, and sought to use her as a mechanism for destroying the Force itself. The Exile defeated the Sith Lords, foiled Kreia's plan, and disappeared into deep space searching for Revan. The galaxy was essentially returned to the same state as it was in before the events of KotOR 2.

A few things about this: first, it all happened behind the scenes; the Jedi of the TOR era don't even know what really happened, in fact the only people who ever knew were the Exile and her companions. Second, because the events of KotOR 2 didn't really change the political landscape of the galaxy in any significant way, it's really more of an historical footnote to the Jedi Civil War rather than a major event in its own right.

This is absolutely not to say the story of KotOR 2 wasn't important. Taken in the context of the Timeline series, however, we decided it would be confusing and that the next note in the history of the galaxy should be the Jedi Civil War.

Thanks for all the feedback and interest in the game and in the Timeline videos. You guys remind us of why we're doing all this, so keep it up.

Cheers

I found this here.

Te Darasuum Mandalor 06-24-2010 10:45 AM

They are just jelous that obsiden beat them to the game.

Alkonium 06-24-2010 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endorenna (Post 2734243)
Bioware on TSL:



I found this here.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, actually. Plus, if they really were disregarding it, they wouldn't have even mentioned Revan disappearing.

mimartin 06-24-2010 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Te Darasuum Mandalor (Post 2734244)
They are just jelous that obsiden beat them to the game.

:lol: No, BioWare was just too busy with Jade Empire at the time, hell BioWare even got Obsidian the job.

adamqd 06-24-2010 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin (Post 2734249)
:lol: No, BioWare was just too busy with Jade Empire at the time, hell BioWare even got Obsidian the job.

This^^ Bioware Suggested Obsidian to LA :)

Also, as Rob Chestney say's, TSL was a story that happened in the Shadows, and once ended, the Galaxy was none the wiser anyway.

Lord of Hunger 06-24-2010 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIOWARE
*snip*

This does make a lot of sense.

The other big dispute I've noticed is over Revan's motivations, which were a central plot element of TSL. The latest timeline does not actually conflict with TSL's canon regarding Revan's discovery of the True Sith and his decision to utilize the Dark Side to fight them. Thus, one could say that true to TSL Revan pretended to become the Sith Emperor's puppet. The timeline doesn't actually say it, but allows such an interpretation.

I say that was some decent writing on Bioware's part.

And on that note, I'd say that Bioware's problem is not poor character development anymore. I've been playing Dragon Age recently and I'd say that the Party Members in that have the most depth I've seen in a Bioware work. The problem is that they overuse the same format for their characters and story. Hell, Mass Effect is an outright rip off of KOTOR in terms of plot, which is why I have no interest in really playing it. Dragon Age was also initially disappointing in that they promised more variety of plot outcomes for each different class when in reality it's the same ending when the chips are down. If Bioware can find a new format for their stories, I'd say they'd be in better shape.

purifier 06-24-2010 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endorenna (Post 2734243)
Bioware on TSL:



I found this here.



Well I guess the lesson here ladies and gentlemen is: Always get it straight from the horse's mouth, no matter what you hear otherwise. I was starting think they were ignoring TSL too. :lol:



Great find Endorenna! ;)

mimartin 06-24-2010 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger (Post 2734274)
The other big dispute I've noticed is over Revan's motivations, which were a central plot element of TSL. The latest timeline does not actually conflict with TSL's canon regarding Revan's discovery of the True Sith and his decision to utilize the Dark Side to fight them.

Agreed. It also goes along the same lines as Endorenna find. If I remember correctly most of the conversations about Revanís motivation were between the Exile and Kreia. Well with Kreia dead and the Exile headed for the Unknown region, who exactly was left to share Kreiaís theories with the rest of the galaxy?

mstr kenobi 06-24-2010 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin (Post 2734278)
Agreed. It also goes along the same lines as Endorenna find. If I remember correctly most of the conversations about Revanís motivation were between the Exile and Kreia. Well with Kreia dead and the Exile headed for the Unknown region, who exactly was left to share Kreiaís theories with the rest of the galaxy?


not to mention that kreia's theories are just that, theories (and trying to save face for her star pupil turning to the dark side)

i never took it as the undisputed truth.

Prime 06-24-2010 02:45 PM

So what exactly is the big complaint here?

Giant Graffiti 06-24-2010 05:12 PM

That people make video games.

Ghost 06-24-2010 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gιygαs (Post 2734323)
That people make video games.

This.

Bioware wasn't all bad, but they weren't the best either. But, they were the ones who created Kotor, so we should be happy that they even decided to make that story, and that Obsidian continued it in a more realistic way. I really don't see the point moaning about how TSL is being retconned by TOR, since it isn't up to us to determine canon. I do, however, despise how they added to Revan's story, giving him the classic evil Sith background. For once, Star Wars made sense in TSL. And so many people "worshipped" Revan because he was a mystery, a person who had a sense of individuality rather than a collective mind like the Jedi and the Sith both. He probably was one of the best minds in of his time.

Think about it, he knew what sacrifices had to be made for the future, he outwitted and outperformed the Mandalorians, who were known to be the one of the best fighting forces in the galaxy. (Plus TSL made the Mandalorians seem less like mindless brutes). Then, at Malachor, Revan defeated the Mandalorians in one swift move, and sacrificed those men who were not loyal to Revan. He then converted all those people to his cause.

I liked it better when Revan was his own master, when he wasn't influenced by some sith master. But Bioware had to ruin it for us, which also ruins some of Kotor. If they were on a mission to find the Star maps, then why was it said Revan and Malak searched for them during the Mandalorian Wars? *sigh* I guess things have to be ruined for certain games.

Anyway, Bioware is a good company, but they have LucasArts which are making the decisions. So really, we should be blaming LucasArts for ruining everything.

TKA-001 06-24-2010 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tysyacha (Post 2734148)
Why is LucasArts trying to erase the story of THE SITH LORDS and pretend that its events never happened (you know, with Kreia, the Exile, and so on)?

First of all, they aren't.

Second, we need a master thread stickied for this topic somewhere.

Darth Avlectus 06-24-2010 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstr kenobi (Post 2734291)
not to mention that kreia's theories are just that, theories (and trying to save face for her star pupil turning to the dark side)

i never took it as the undisputed truth.

I'd call it more speculation: Some truth, and lots of interpretation. All she really said as a matter of fact was that Revan's motives were always his own and that he was true to himself. Which to be honest fits right into the plot outlined w/ TOR.

I will say that anyone entrusting procurement of the Star Forge to a couple lackeys is making a stupid mistake, 1300 years old or not. But in the end it was of little to no matter anyways. So he must have seen and known its capabilities before and was able to work out scenarios in either case.

mstr kenobi 06-24-2010 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity (Post 2734365)
I'd call it more speculation: Some truth, and lots of interpretation. All she really said as a matter of fact was that Revan's motives were always his own and that he was true to himself. Which to be honest fits right into the plot outlined w/ TOR.

I will say that anyone entrusting procurement of the Star Forge to a couple lackeys is making a stupid mistake, 1300 years old or not. But in the end it was of little to no matter anyways. So he must have seen and known its capabilities before and was able to work out scenarios in either case.

agreed,a lot of speculation
if i remember correctly,even kreia says "maybe he didn't fall,maybe he was just being true to himself" even her hesitates in making that afirmation...

hummm... the emperor didn't want to show himself and lead a direct assault on the republic and the jedi at full strength, and he needed Revan to be an actual treat and wreak havok in republic space, not a weekend distraction to the jedi council.

maybe he calculated both would end up destroyed,or close to that...

Prime 06-24-2010 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Banana (Post 2734324)
I really don't see the point moaning about how TSL is being retconned by TOR, since it isn't up to us to determine canon. I do, however, despise how they added to Revan's story, giving him the classic evil Sith background.

So you are complaining that they added to the story? I'm not sure that the retcons are that you are referring to. As some others have said, at first glance things seem to fit together.

Mav 06-24-2010 10:55 PM

I hope they retcon Jar-Jar into the story, <3 Jar-Jar~~

Tysyacha 06-24-2010 11:01 PM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What's the opposite of <3? I do THAT to Jar-Jar.

Jae Onasi 06-24-2010 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrotoy7 (Post 2734210)
There are red headed French lesbians in TOR??? AWESOMEZ :thmbup1:

Mais oui, mon amour.

Seriously, TOR's supposed to be a few hundred years into the future from the K1/TSL storylines, so they don't necessarily have to retcon anything. Bioware pretty much gets to start from scratch with that much time between those games.

Darth Avlectus 06-25-2010 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstr kenobi (Post 2734395)
agreed,a lot of speculation
if i remember correctly,even kreia says "maybe he didn't fall,maybe he was just being true to himself" even her hesitates in making that afirmation...

IIRC exile said something on the order of [hidden]revan being a monster[/quote] and that was part of what Kreia said, correcting the Exile.


Quote:

hummm... the emperor didn't want to show himself and lead a direct assault on the republic and the jedi at full strength, and he needed Revan to be an actual treat and wreak havok in republic space, not a weekend distraction to the jedi council.
I'm still thinking through it. I mean if he _really_ wanted the Star Forge, it was a VERY stupid idea...

However, now I'm beginning to wonder if it wasn't "conditional" strategy all along.

Admittedly not an easy change in tone for me, but it's really the only way I can make sense of this.

1) If Revan was strong of mind and will, Then Revan would take the remnants of this old technology for himself and attempt to take over the galaxy with it.

2) If Revan was not strong of mind and will, Then the Star Forge would fall into the Emperor's hands with Revan as a proxy, and things would proceed ahead of schedule (or on schedule depending).

As a contingency either way, the Emperor could have "sealed himself away" safely from the weapon. If what Canderous said in K1 was right.

What remains consistent for both scenarios would be somehow knowing that the Star Forge was limited. (Referring to G0-T0's talk about Revan, and to the Holocron on Korriban for the scenario in the wake of Dark Side Revan). This might imply that he knew of the Rakatan history himself. However this is troubling because as we know the Rakatans had been the only previous ones in possession and there is nothing to support that it had any other users in possession of it. The knowledge wasn't really widely available...Sure access to SOME of it might have been possible, but that has yet to be clarified.

I'm guessing this Sith Emperor's rival looked in vain for the Star Forge (he had one map in his possession afterall). It would certainly seem that way.


Quote:

maybe he calculated both would end up destroyed,or close to that...
I'm still trying to figure it out, personally. What the emperor did and did not know (and when) is now starting to become a subject of interest to me.

Lots of intrigue. That's for sure.

Mav 06-25-2010 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tysyacha (Post 2734422)
What's the opposite of <3?

... </3 .... *sigh*

igyman 06-25-2010 05:27 AM

What's interesting to me is that the title of Sith Emperor seems to have been held by one person for several hundred years (unless I'm poorly informed), meaning the Sith Emperor who turned Revan and Malak is the same person leading the Sith Empire in TOR. It's Star Wars, so there are several possible explanations for this, but wouldn't it be fun if he turned out to be Vandar Tokare who didn't really die on Katarr (after all, that particular species does have the necessary lifespan)? :D

Prime 06-25-2010 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by igyman (Post 2734494)
but wouldn't it be fun if he turned out to be Vandar Tokare who didn't really die on Katarr (after all, that particular species does have the necessary lifespan)? :D

That would make me cry. :cry6:

Sabretooth 06-25-2010 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi (Post 2734429)
Seriously, TOR's supposed to be a few hundred years into the future from the K1/TSL storylines, so they don't necessarily have to retcon anything.

The reason it's set a few hundred years into the future is that they don't have to retcon anything.

mstr kenobi 06-25-2010 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity (Post 2734457)
IIRC exile said something on the order of [hidden]revan being a monster

and that was part of what Kreia said, correcting the Exile.




I'm still thinking through it. I mean if he _really_ wanted the Star Forge, it was a VERY stupid idea...

However, now I'm beginning to wonder if it wasn't "conditional" strategy all along.

Admittedly not an easy change in tone for me, but it's really the only way I can make sense of this.

1) If Revan was strong of mind and will, Then Revan would take the remnants of this old technology for himself and attempt to take over the galaxy with it.

2) If Revan was not strong of mind and will, Then the Star Forge would fall into the Emperor's hands with Revan as a proxy, and things would proceed ahead of schedule (or on schedule depending).

As a contingency either way, the Emperor could have "sealed himself away" safely from the weapon. If what Canderous said in K1 was right.

What remains consistent for both scenarios would be somehow knowing that the Star Forge was limited. (Referring to G0-T0's talk about Revan, and to the Holocron on Korriban for the scenario in the wake of Dark Side Revan). This might imply that he knew of the Rakatan history himself. However this is troubling because as we know the Rakatans had been the only previous ones in possession and there is nothing to support that it had any other users in possession of it. The knowledge wasn't really widely available...Sure access to SOME of it might have been possible, but that has yet to be clarified.

I'm guessing this Sith Emperor's rival looked in vain for the Star Forge (he had one map in his possession afterall). It would certainly seem that way.




I'm still trying to figure it out, personally. What the emperor did and did not know (and when) is now starting to become a subject of interest to me.

Lots of intrigue. That's for sure.[/QUOTE]


My point about Kreia and Revan is that her opinion shouldn't be taken as the absolute truth (although other things in tsl,like Goto's opinion on Revan,sugest she is close to the truth)
I actually agree on that opinion,but there's no proof, so if he actually was being a lackey to the emperor i wouldn't consider a retcon,simply, Kreia was wrong about him...

Yeah, if the Star Forge was his trump card,that was veeery bad move...
If he knew/figured out it's limitations than it's just another asset to be used,still a powerfull one granted...
I don't remember what Canderous said(you know 2003 looong time ago lol),could you help me here

Still after the events of Kotor leading up to TSL,both the republic/jedi and Malak's sith are done and destroyed,which begs the question,why wait 300 years to attack?????and where the army that we see in TOR comes from????They were just there all this time???? or this army has just been formed?????

questions questions questions

Darth InSidious 06-25-2010 03:05 PM

TSL didn't sell as well and was less popular critically than KotOR. Which may be part of the reason that LA and Bio have rather glossed over it.

What's more interesting is why Bioware have glossed over the Mandalorian Wars in their video-promo-things, which was their own invention. Maybe they're playing with unreliable narrators, but if so it's something of a deviation from type for them.

I'm not a fan of mandalorians, but retconning the Mando Wars just doesn't seem to make much sense.


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