LucasForums

LucasForums (http://www.lucasforums.com/index.php)
-   Kavar's Corner (http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=698)
-   -   Colorado Police Use Pepper Spray on 8 Year Old (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=207063)

JediAthos 04-06-2011 10:52 PM

Colorado Police Use Pepper Spray on 8 Year Old
 
DENVER Ė Eight-year-old Aidan Elliott had thrown a TV and chairs at his Colorado elementary school and was trying to use a cart to bust through a door to an office where teachers and other students fled for safety.

No one could calm the boy, not even the staff in a program for children with behavior problems like him. So they called police, who had intervened with Aidan twice before.

Police found him with a foot-long piece of wood trim with a knife-like point in one hand and a cardboard box in the other.

"Come get me, f-----," he said.

When they couldn't calm him down, one squirted Aidan with pepper spray. He blocked it with the cardboard box.

A second squirt hit the youngster in the side of the head, and down he went, according to an account of the Feb. 22 standoff in a police report first obtained by KUSA-TV.

Aidan and his mother went on national talk shows on Wednesday to say using pepper spray on an unruly 8-year-old was too much.

Police and officials at Glennon Heights Elementary in Lakewood, Colo., say it could've been worse.

"Had the officers chosen to be hands-on with him, the potential for him getting some type of injury and, maybe even officers, would have been much higher," police spokesman Steve Davis said.

"It was the best choice made," he said.

Aidan started acting up while on the bus to school, the police report said. He began screaming and then continued after breakfast while throwing chairs at his teachers.

"He was being very aggressive, very violent," said Melissa Reeves, the school district spokeswoman.

There were eight students with Aidan in the classroom, Reeves said, and teachers removed them after he became violent. They barricaded themselves in an office, as he tried to bust in, Davis said.

Aidan was swearing and shouting expletives at his teachers and threatening them, Davis said. He taunted police when they arrived.

"I wanted to make something sharp, like if they came out, `cause I was so mad at them," the boy said on NBC's "Today" show. "I was going to try to whack them with it."

After hitting him with the second squirt, officers took Aidan outside for some fresh air to help dissipate the spray. Paramedics were treating his red, irritated face with cool water when his mother arrived.

According to the report, Mandy Elliott asked her son what he did.

When he told her he had been hit with pepper spray, she is quoted as saying, "Well, you probably deserved it."

It wasn't the first time officers had been called to pacify Aidan, Davis said. They'd been able to talk him down in two other incidents.

On Wednesday, Mandy Elliott said she wished authorities had chosen to talk him down. She also wanted police to get special training in dealing with children. Aidan has since transferred to another school.

When asked about the pepper spray and what he did, Aidan said: "I kind of deserved it."


Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_child_pepper_sprayed

While it might seem a bit much to some, I'm with the police on this one. Considering this child was throwing large objects, and making threats enough that people were barricading themselves in a room to get away from him I don't see where the police had a choice. Now I will say I have been sprayed with this stuff (part of military security training) and it will definitely ruin your day, but in most instances it isn't lethal.

So, was spraying him the right thing to do? Thoughts?

Sabretooth 04-07-2011 12:33 AM

Well, it could have been worse, they could have tased him.

Tommycat 04-07-2011 01:25 AM

Lets see what the options were:
Talk him down: Nope, he was throwing large objects, and taunting police. At that point the child wasn't listening. He's using weapons, and the prior talk down didn't leave a lasting impression.
Wrestle with him: Break a bone by accident. Yeah that would look real good.
Taser: Yeah... high voltage, and two prong holes in him... Bad idea.
Pepper spray: redness, swelling, burning, but unless he was allergic, no permanent damage, and they already had paramedics on scene.

Sounds like a perfect kid for the "SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP!" parenting technique.

Primogen 04-07-2011 01:28 AM

This is awful. They pepper-sprayed him? Come on, when a brat acts like that, you want to make a -mark-, something the little piece of trash won't -ever- forget, like a baton to the face.

Liverandbacon 04-07-2011 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediAthos (Post 2772679)
No one could calm the boy, not even the staff in a program for children with behavior problems like him. So they called police, who had intervened with Aidan twice before.

When the police need to be called to deal with any student (especially one so young), things are out of hand. When they're called for the third time, people should be asking why the kid's allowed to attend a school where his mental problems cannot be fully addressed, and he is a serious danger to other students. I'd assume the only reason no teacher physically restrained him was fear of getting sued/fired for hurting a kid, since an 8 year old (even with a sharp object/knife), is pretty easy to take down.

Quote:

squirt hit him on the side of his face ... Aidan and his mother went on national talk shows on Wednesday to say using pepper spray on an unruly 8-year-old was too much. ... Paramedics were treating his red, irritated face with cool water ... On Wednesday, Mandy Elliott said she wished authorities had chosen to talk him down. She also wanted police to get special training in dealing with children. Aidan has since transferred to another school.
This just pissed me off. Pepper spray hurts a lot (I've felt it multiple times in training), but this kid didn't even get it in his eyes, from what I've read. Another article said he was treated for 'minor skin irritation'. The kid got off easy. The most common reaction I've seen from people is "so 2 cops couldn't disarm one child without pepper spraying him?". These people don't seem to comprehend that 8 year olds are pretty breakable, and getting physical could cause an actual injury, instead of some irritated skin. In other words, using pepper spray on an 8 year old who is far beyond "unruly" (try destructive and violent instead), is, if anything, too little.

The kid's idiot mother, whose terrible parenting skills no doubt contributed to, if not flat out created, his issues, can't accept her share of the blame, and has the audacity to criticize the police for not "talking him down", "using excessive force", and "treating him like a common criminal". Of course this means that they should be forced to go through special training to deal with her dear little future felon. The police had already talked the kid down twice. That should have told her to get her act together parenting-wise, but it didn't. The kid is a 'common criminal' (albeit a young one), so of course that's how he'll be treated. Perhaps she is the one needing to get special training in dealing with children.

She's been leaving the school and the police to do her job, and is now blaming them when it doesn't go the way she wants. Based on her unwillingness to accept any responsibility, and the kid's current attitude/behavior, I am 100% certain that, unless he is mostly raised by someone else from now on (mental problem boarding school, foster care, etc.), little Aidan will one day be wasting my tax dollars, sitting in prison.

TL;DR Version: The kid deserved it and the mom should learn how to be a parent instead of blaming everyone else.

Astor 04-07-2011 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liverandbacon (Post 2772698)
This just pissed me off. Pepper spray hurts a lot (I've felt it multiple times in training), but this kid didn't even get it in his eyes, from what I've read. Another article said he was treated for 'minor skin irritation'. The kid got off easy. The most common reaction I've seen from people is "so 2 cops couldn't disarm one child without pepper spraying him?". These people don't seem to comprehend that 8 year olds are pretty breakable, and getting physical could cause an actual injury, instead of some irritated skin. In other words, using pepper spray on an 8 year old who is far beyond "unruly" (try destructive and violent instead), is, if anything, too little.

The kid's idiot mother, whose terrible parenting skills no doubt contributed to, if not flat out created, his issues, can't accept her share of the blame, and has the audacity to criticize the police for not "talking him down", "using excessive force", and "treating him like a common criminal". Of course this means that they should be forced to go through special training to deal with her dear little future felon. The police had already talked the kid down twice. That should have told her to get her act together parenting-wise, but it didn't. The kid is a 'common criminal' (albeit a young one), so of course that's how he'll be treated. Perhaps she is the one needing to get special training in dealing with children.

She's been leaving the school and the police to do her job, and is now blaming them when it doesn't go the way she wants. Based on her unwillingness to accept any responsibility, and the kid's current attitude/behavior, I am 100% certain that, unless he is mostly raised by someone else from now on (mental problem boarding school, foster care, etc.), little Aidan will one day be wasting my tax dollars, sitting in prison.

The child deserved it.

The child, and his mother, need to learn you can't throw chairs, TVs or whatever else at people without serious consequences. If he'd have been an adult, I've no doubt the officers would have tackled him to the ground rather forcefully afterwards.

Tommycat 04-07-2011 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astor (Post 2772707)
The child deserved it.

The child, and his mother, need to learn you can't throw chairs, TVs or whatever else at people without serious consequences. If he'd have been an adult, I've no doubt the officers would have tackled him to the ground rather forcefully afterwards.

And he would be facing charges, while waiting in an 8x5

purifier 04-07-2011 11:31 PM

Maybe they should have pulled out one of their belts, grab him by one arm, and woop that ass. I'll bet he's never been spanked in his entire life.



Come're boy! :cop:

Darth Avlectus 04-08-2011 12:06 AM

First a grim foreword:
Message to Mandy Elliott: You need to WAKE UP, hon. At this rate in less than 10 years you'll be getting that call from your precious little Aidan from the D.O.C. arrested for God only knows what, once to be bailed out and many more times after his sentencing, while serving time. Very likely (and I do *not* take joy in saying this) between enduring some terrible, terrible things. If you truly do love your child, you will *not* allow this to become reality. You will act NOW and take responsibility while there is still time to make a difference.
=============================

OK. This sounds like one of my friends as a child, but you see there are some major differences between my pal and this kid. My pal had some psychological impairments on top of being your typical hotheadded 8 year old and didn't always recognize what he was doing was wrong. He is now a functioning member of society. This kid on the other hand admits as much that he deserved what he got so that pretty much eliminates psychological impairment.
TL;DR version: Hey I have a friend who used to act like this kid. My friend, however, was mental. This kid, from what the story implies was NOT mental.

How did I come to this?

There are 2 other possibilities for such behavior:
1) emotionally disturbed and pushed to an extreme. Males being full of testosterone understandably desire wanting to rip someone's head off when agitated--but that doesn't necessarily mean/guarantee they WILL because they are aware of consequences so it'd have to be, as I said, extreme. This can be scratched from the list because it sounds like if this kid was acting as an agitator, not from being agitated. There is another explanation outside mental and psychological issues: Undisciplined. Which leads me to the next explanation...
TL;DR: Blowing a fuse and having a breakdown in some way or another as a response. As in the case of bullying. This was NOT.

2) Bad parenting. OK if the kid admits he deserved what he got, that's evidence he knows what he is doing is unacceptable and persisting in it anyways. He's obviously looking for attention and this is a pattern of behavior that surfaces because he is often allowed to get away with this kind of thing on a regular basis. As in at home allowed by his mother.

TL;DR: He's an EFFING BRAT and his mother refuses to admit it or do anything to correct it. The mother is the problem.

Police having dealt with the kid twice before ought to be an obvious wakeup sign. But no, the mother, instead of accepting responsibility, decided to turn it back around on the police and the school "Why didn't you just talk him down?".
Hmm, I dunno, let's see: A kid using an object as a battering ram on a door behind which is hiding potential victims, then shouting obscenities and going literally gladiator on the cops once they arrive and refusing to talk. Think THAT might have had something to do with it? :roleyess: Just saying.

Though the public school systems have their problems, THIS problem is NOT their fault. The cops were doing their job too.

When my pal used to do his little rampages, they didn't have pepperspray back then so he got a forced restraint. BTW he was in a foster home and actually got too much discipline. He's read this article as well and with his permission I post this and I quote:
Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA's IRL friend "Chris"
:lol: If the kid himself says he deserved it then he obviously knew what he was doing. If I got pushed down, wrestled, forcefully restrained, and then cuffed back 20+ years ago, this little brat got what he deserved, I say.

I think the cops were in the right on this one, personally. I know how bad it was as I've been tased as part of combative training, maced (17% solution) as part of the same. I could just imagine how bad bear mace is...actually, no I couldn't. Since mace represents an alternative to quite possibly injurious forceful handling and is easily rectified on top of that, I say it's perfectly acceptable especially where the parenting is bad. Hell, they should have made the kid wear the mace just a little longer (30-60 minutes) IMO before washing it off in order to get the message to the little hoodlum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pimp of sesame street (Post 2772692)
This is awful. They pepper-sprayed him? Come on, when a brat acts like that, you want to make a -mark-, something the little piece of trash won't -ever- forget, like a baton to the face.

[HK-47]{Translation}: It's discipline time with The Count on sesame street. {Imitation}: "<PSSSHHH!> One, <PSSSHHH!> Two, <PSSSHHH!> Three. Three Smacks? AHHHAAAHHHAAAHHAAAHHAAAHHHAAAAAA!"
{Satisfied Statement}: Why yes, meatb- err I mean human children's televised programming would be ideal if it contained this kind of content.
[/HK-47]

Q 04-08-2011 12:07 AM

The cops made the right call, and the kid deserved it.

Tommycat 04-08-2011 12:40 AM

I wish they had a video of that one...

Qui-Gon Glenn 04-09-2011 09:04 PM

Uh....

Why is anyone even talking to the mother like she has something valuable to say? She should be arrested immediately, thrown in jail, and the kid needs to be taken by the authorities. There is something awful rotting behind all this, I smell it through the interwebz.

Jae Onasi 04-09-2011 09:30 PM

I suspect a combination of multiple things here.
1. Very disturbed child. The article says as much: "the staff in a program for children with behavior problems like him." Kids don't normally just pick up desks and throw them, and show no fear of the cops.
2. Mother who clearly has no idea how to handle the kid and his very serious problems.
3. Possible issues in the home with abuse, drugs, alcohol, etc.

The kid obviously posed a threat serious enough that the teacher had to barricade herself and the other children to protect them from him. He was wielding a weapon (albeit crude) and was exhibiting violent behavior sufficient to be a real threat. He also wasn't calming down with either staff specialized in working with kids like him or when the cops talked to him.

I don't think the cops had any choice here, and it looks to me like they used the minimum force necessary to stop him from being a threat. If they'd tried to use physical force to stop him, not only might they have hurt him, but they might have gotten hurt themselves if he kicked them, bit them, and so on.

The kid clearly needs a medical and psych evaluation, and mom needs help learning how to parent him properly, and the child protection service in that state needs to investigate the home situation asap to see what's going on, because I smell something very foul just like Qui-Gon Glenn does.

By the way, where's DAD?

Primogen 04-09-2011 10:30 PM

In prison, run off, or unknown, I suspect.

mimartin 04-09-2011 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi (Post 2773189)
By the way, where's DAD?

Why does that matter? Mothers have been raising perfectly adjusted children alone since the dawn of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Primogen (Post 2773191)
In prison, run off, or unknown, I suspect.

It was not in any of the reports that I could find and I find this type of speculation distasteful. How do you know he isn’t dead?

The thing that got me about this story is
Quote:

The Lakewood school district includes Columbine High School, the scene of the 1999 school shooting that left 15 people dead.
So I’ll give the police benefit of the doubt in this case.

Jae Onasi 04-10-2011 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin
Why does that matter? Mothers have been raising perfectly adjusted children alone since the dawn of time.

If he's alive and able, he should be around helping raise his kid instead of ditching his responsibility.

mimartin 04-10-2011 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi (Post 2773200)
If he's alive and able, he should be around helping raise his kid instead of ditching his responsibility.

If he is alive and irresponsible perhaps he shouldn't.

Sorry, but I was raised by a single mother. My father left shortly after my birth. I just take exception to people thinking that a single mother canít raise a responsible well adjust child. Later in life I became close with my father and I am thankful that I never knew the man that abandoned his family. That alcoholic womanizer was not the man I knew and love thirteen years later. Still I think my mother did a wonderful job of preparing me for life. I also appreciate my dad for not being there when he was too irresponsible to raise a child. I just donít think it takes a mother and a father to raise a child. One or the other will work just fine as long as they care about the child's wellbeing and put that first.

Tommycat 04-10-2011 04:55 AM

@mim:
In this case, that's a reasonable question. If the child is this unruly, and the mother felt it was the right thing to do to go on talk shows to talk about how bad it was to use the least damaging force possible, maybe the father might be a logical choice. Perhaps she is overburdened...

JediAthos 04-10-2011 09:24 AM

I think what really gets me in this scenario is the mother was overheard telling the kid "Well you probably deserved it" and the kid said "I kind of deserved it" and this mother has the intestinal fortitude to go on television and tell people the police did the wrong thing???

I would agree that the child is certainly not the only one of the two with issues.

mimartin 04-10-2011 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommycat (Post 2773219)
Perhaps she is overburdened...

And perhaps her child's best interest isn't her number one priority.

Tommycat 04-10-2011 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin (Post 2773257)
And perhaps her child's best interest isn't her number one priority.

Just saying that sometimes it's a good thing to have that second person available to help. Assuming, of course, that help is worth having... She obviously needs help with the child. Not all single mothers are capable of handling all children.

Taak Farst 04-10-2011 01:11 PM

This is one reason of why I hate american news. ANYTHING to make someone look bad and more dramatic. Sure, english news does it, but rarely, and not on the same scale. I mean for god sake that kid is a little brat, and his mother is obviously a horrible parent.

However, why does NBC have to bring up the columbine massacre 15 years ago? To make the districtl ook bad? the police? children in general?
It's bloody irrelevant and did not need mentioning. trying to blow it out of proportion is all it is

mimartin 04-10-2011 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommycat (Post 2773265)
Just saying that sometimes it's a good thing to have that second person available to help. Assuming, of course, that help is worth having... She obviously needs help with the child. Not all single mothers are capable of handling all children.

Not all two parent household are capable of handing all children either. So what?

I never wrote two parent households were worse than one parent households. I was just pointing out that just because there is only one parent does not mean they can't raise a responsible child. As far as I’m concern, you could have any one or any combination of sets of parent raise a responsible child as long as they love the child and put the child’s needs above his/her or their needs. Before you pick on that, by needs I don’t mean everything the child wants. I mean everything the child needs to prepare them for being an adult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taak Farst (Post 2773272)
However, why does NBC have to bring up the columbine massacre 15 years ago? To make the district look bad? the police? children in general?

Isn't that a fact. Why should a news agency purposely leave out part of the news?

I also don't see how that makes the police look bad in this case. If anything it made me give them more of the benefit of the doubt. Being in the same school district as Columbine told me that they have received training in how to deal with this type of situation, so instead of saying OMG the spayed a 8 year old. I was pretty sure their training covered situations like this and they made the best decision on how to protect other students, themselves and the 8 year-old.

Taak Farst 04-10-2011 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimartin (Post 2773277)
Isn't that a fact. Why should a news agency purposely leave out part of the news?

How the hell is the columbine massacre part of the news about an 8 year old runnin riot? just because it's in the same damn district? am i going to walk in the park and then someone start reporting it saying "HE WALKED THE VERY PATH BIN LADEN WALKED ON"

mimartin 04-10-2011 02:43 PM

Who, What, When and Where, Why and How.

1. It tells the Where.
2. It tells anyone that has kept up with the aftermath of the Columbine Massacre more information on the Who. As I know the police have had special training on how to deal with this situation.
3. It gives some insight into Why the police reacted the way they did.

I guarantee anyone not including that piece of background information in preparing this story for Journalism 101 would take a serious hit when the grade came back.

Qui-Gon Glenn 04-10-2011 03:48 PM

I tend to agree with mim on the one-parent/two-parent deal... Yes, ideally we would all be raised by two happy loving parents. The reality is we are lucky to get even one loving parent... those who had two are more and more scarce these days, which was a trend that began a little before my parents divorced in 1977 when I was 5 years old.

My mother was certainly overburdened. She worked full-time and had two children to raise, 5 and 3, by herself. We lived in the ghetto for the first two years after the divorce, and slowly she climbed in her career, making better money for us to live off of, and consequently having less time for us. I was a problem for most of my childhood, my sister slightly less so. I did some wacky things at the school, stuff that I had to have therapy for (or not return to that school).

Would she have benefited having a "partner" raising us? If the partner was an actually interested party, yes! My Dad was not that guy though, and never would be, so she had to do the best she could. Looking back, there were definitely mistakes she made, but in her position I do not fathom how anyone could have done better, or even the same, by herself. She loved us, and paid as much attention to us as she could without losing her jobs.

The "overburdened" thing is a cop-out. She may have been overburdened, but it was a self-fulfilling prophecy of her simply not doing enough in the child's younger years.... She created the overburdening herself, and refused to deal with the situation. There is lots of help available out there... I had a "Big Brother" for years, and it was fortunately a great experience for me, although there have been some bad tales from that program. We went to the Summer Camp for the city kids, bus-riding in and out every day... mostly subsidized so Mom didn't have to foot the whole bill, providing my sis and I an outlet that we resented at the time, but has proven to have been well worth it.

Long story short, there is help out there for "overburdened" single parents, it is incumbent on them to seek it out or rightfully take the blame for their inability to parent their child. This woman has totally blown it, and should be taking the lion's share of the blame.

A mirror 04-18-2011 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purifier (Post 2772852)
Maybe they should have pulled out one of their belts, grab him by one arm, and woop that ass. I'll bet he's never been spanked in his entire life.Come're boy! :cop:


Thats called molestation.

Blix 05-02-2011 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabretooth (Post 2772686)
Well, it could have been worse, they could have tased him.

Or made the brat eat a dirt sandwich :lol:

Tommycat 05-02-2011 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A mirror (Post 2774738)
Thats called molestation.

Actually it's called assault on a minor. Molestation is if it's sexual in nature. But the point is still valid as neither one would have been acceptable for a law enforcement officer to perform.

Motorheadbanger 05-27-2011 02:55 PM

8 years old? Seriously? I'm pretty sure anyone can easily pick up an 8 year old with no problems whatsoever. Even the unruly ones. People need to stop acting like pansies, and to take responsibility for the well-being of their children.

Trench 05-27-2011 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A mirror (Post 2774738)
Thats called molestation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommycat (Post 2776898)
Actually it's called assault on a minor.

You're both wrong. It's called discipline. I'm a horrible enough person IRL, but if I hadn't gotten proper discipline for my misdeeds, I'd probably be out shootin' people instead of workin' a good job and attending church. :cop:

This kid needs some tough discipline. And a moral and just father figure to straighten him up and be an example. And some meds. And a straightjacket.

GTA's post said everything that needed to be said.

VegetableMonster 05-30-2011 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jai'galaar Bralor (Post 2779796)
You're both wrong. It's called discipline. I'm a horrible enough person IRL, but if I hadn't gotten proper discipline for my misdeeds, I'd probably be out shootin' people instead of workin' a good job and attending church. :cop:

This kid needs some tough discipline. And a moral and just father figure to straighten him up and be an example. And some meds. And a straightjacket.

GTA's post said everything that needed to be said.

i agree with you. if the kid was posing a threat i think the cop had every righ to do tht. and the kid seemed to have no discipline at all. good parents discipline their kids. bad parents might just end up with a little aidan

harark1 05-30-2011 02:56 PM

Geez yeah they definately did the right thing. If it was me I probally would have just kicked him in the stomach and then hand cuff him, but pepper spray works too.

Liverandbacon 05-30-2011 06:47 PM

Getting a spanking from a cop after being subdued isn't going to instill discipline in a kid. It'd be pointless. Pepper spray was the best solution, since it stopped the kid, and didn't risk injuring him in a way the cops might get sued for, like a more physical takedown might have.

Discipline is something that takes time and consistency to permanently teach, no matter what methods you use. The only person who has enough control over that kid's life to teach it is, unfortunately, his mother. She won't, so as I said before, unless the kid is raised elsewhere (new family, boarding school for kids with mental issues), he won't learn. A spanking from a cop won't turn that around and stop him from being a future convict.

Tommycat 05-31-2011 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jai'galaar Bralor (Post 2779796)
You're both wrong. It's called discipline.

Not if a cop does it. First off IF a cop does it, they can get sued by the parents. You and I may not have a problem with it, but it is seen in some parent's eyes as cruelty to the child. I raised two very healthy children and maintained discipline quite well without resorting to whoopins. You can maintain discipline without it. It takes a strong parent. And you have to start before the child gets to the stage where cops have to be brought in. If the cop has to be brought in, you have not done your job as a parent. Not to mention, I learned from my stepmom that if you hit the wrong part on a child, it can be very damaging to more than their "pride" as it can lead to several health issues. If you have to whip a child, please go for the lower legs. Specifically the calves. Still hurts like heck, but won't give them health issues later.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:29 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.