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-   -   Does anyone feel bad about being bad? (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=213114)

Sith Sizzle 10-28-2013 06:21 AM

Does anyone feel bad about being bad?
 
Despite having the profile name Sith Sizzle, I don't play on the dark side that often. I've beaten the game on both sides, but dark side is more difficult for me. Not because it's too challenging, but because it wears on my conscience at times. When I'm talking to an NPC that is a complete jerk or has done bad things, I have no problem showing no mercy and disposing of him/her, however there are just certain dark side acts that always leave me feeling bad. I already feel bad enough on my own, but when Bastila and/or Carth are in my party they make me feel even worse. A true Jedi doesn't kill anyone unless completely necessary, but like I said I don't have a problem with saying horrible things and killing if I feel the person truly deserves it. However when it comes to NPC's that are indifferent about me and especially ones that are super nice, I just can't bring my self to start a fight, make someone feel bad, and possibly kill them and anyone that's with them. When NPC's are in trouble or are really nice, I just can't bring myself to take the dark road, especially if it's a certain species. It's darn near impossible for me to be mean to an Ithorian or a Wookie. It's just something about their pitiful tones when you threaten them and how downtrodden it seems to make them feel and I just don't like it. Does anyone else feel the same way?

Jamps 11-05-2013 12:05 AM

I share similar feelings when playing KOTOR, or any game I becoming involved in. When a game is able to invoke those sort of feelings in a player, its a sign of good storytelling. I enjoy games where I feel like part of the story, rather than just a spectator. Ending aside, I felt the Mass Effect series did an excellent job at this too.

When playing KOTOR, I found it difficult to play the dark side. In all the years I've owned the game, I've only played as a full Sith once. Granted, its not like I purposefully chose lightside options 100% of the time, but when making my own choices I usually did the nice thing. I liked being the hero and as silly as it may sound, I felt compassion toward the characters in the game.

Alexrd 11-05-2013 03:49 PM

I read somewhere a series of articles about someone playing a dark side campaign of KotOR and how hard it was to make certain decisions and acts. It was a very interesting read but unfortunately I can't seem to find it.

Isaac Clarke 11-05-2013 04:04 PM

I think Mass Effect was better at this.











...nah, I chose Kaidan in a heartbeat.

DuckfromPortal 11-05-2013 04:11 PM

I may seem like the odd one out, but i have never felt bad about doing dark-side acts. when it comes down to it, i don't feel bad because they never show you the impact later,mass effect did that occasionally but even then i smiled and had fun being evil. I'm a light side player mostly, but when i play dark, i do everything i can to be evil. I think the whole making you feel bad thing isnt played up enough to make it a bad enough or degrading enough experience for me to feel bad

Jamps 11-06-2013 01:36 AM

What about the sequence in KOTOR 2 when you are approached by the beggar on Nar Shaddaa? By doing a "good" act, you actually did more harm. I felt this was a great way to further explain Kreia's philosophy. To my fellow bleeding hearts: did you feel bad after this exchange?

I felt that the intent of the actions in the game meant more than the actual light/dark points. I didn't feel bad about helping out the beggar.

As mentioned previously, Mass Effect had an interesting take by having the points be attributed more toward personality. While I accumulated a large amount of Paragon points through the three games, I also had a decent amount of Renegade points. Sometimes it felt like the right thing to do in the situations it presented. So I guess, in regards to my relationship with video games, my intent when playing takes precedence over whatever points system is in play.

Quote:

I think Mass Effect was better at this.











...nah, I chose Kaidan in a heartbeat.
I'll admit... this was one of the easier choices in the game... :holosid:

DuckfromPortal 11-06-2013 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamps (Post 2839891)
What about the sequence in KOTOR 2 when you are approached by the beggar on Nar Shaddaa? By doing a "good" act, you actually did more harm. I felt this was a great way to further explain Kreia's philosophy. To my fellow bleeding hearts: did you feel bad after this exchange?

I felt that the intent of the actions in the game meant more than the actual light/dark points. I didn't feel bad about helping out the beggar.

As mentioned previously, Mass Effect had an interesting take by having the points be attributed more toward personality. While I accumulated a large amount of Paragon points through the three games, I also had a decent amount of Renegade points. Sometimes it felt like the right thing to do in the situations it presented. So I guess, in regards to my relationship with video games, my intent when playing takes precedence over whatever points system is in play.



I'll admit... this was one of the easier choices in the game... :holosid:

I agree with you, also i tried to have ashley as my choice but then i just thought of carth saying, i will never trust you again!, so i went with kaiden because that made me chuckle

Totenkopf 11-06-2013 02:35 AM

In a word.....no. To me it's really no more than a game and picking the DS/evil choices allows you to explore the various angles of the story more fully. I've abandonned both Ash and Kaidan and would have left both behind or saved both if the game had allowed. All about story options in the end.

Darth Avlectus 11-06-2013 04:15 AM

It depends what's in your mind and heart when you choose.

The premises and storylines, lately in games, are so reduculous it's hard to take too seriously. Honestly, though, everything ha some kind of overtone be it political, socio economic, religious, or anything of the sort. I no longer look at it in a simplistic way because whoever produced that may have been trying to ingrain their ideology and mind into it in order to implant that into the consumers of this media. I don't need to be told what to think or how. I don't need anyone's over-simplicity or over-complication.

I never got any "communism" leanings from Super Mario Brothers but I did see a video giving a convincing argument that Mario and Luigi may in fact not have been italians at all but rather Comrades. Not really sure I completely believe it.

So when you ask me about feeling bad about being bad in a game...the only time I ever might is if it wasn't contrived, wasn't needlessly complicated, just realistic and straightforward. Believable. It usually isn't.

No. Not usually.

This is what I have a problem with in SWTOR--too few options to choose and no "all the above" where sometimes it would work best. I have no problem offing someone whom I believe is "too dangerous to be left alive". "Good intentions mean nothing if a greater harm is caused".

I think I can discriminate and call it if I see a difference but I do have to be careful I'm not playing god and passing judgement.

Lee Starcrowe 02-03-2014 04:23 AM

I haven't been able to bring myself to make decisions I feel are seriously wrong in the game without some serious rationalisation. However, this tends to push my character towards the dark side of grey, being as I have some serious problems with Jedi morals. That, and once you know what happens there plenty of situations where the question isn't simply, "shall I kill you or spare you?" but "IF I spare you, are you going to survive what's about to happen?" -and if I have a chance to redeem someone before they die, I take it. And as much as I cringe at how badly written the DS dialog is, sometimes it's the cold, hard truth. For the creative thinker, "Time to die, bugface!" could be interpreted as more of a prophetic warning than a threat.

Griffin Raynor 07-17-2015 09:16 PM

I try very very hard to play a pragmatic, aggressive, vindictive grey Jedi who seems like the kind of person who
Show spoiler
, but I simply can't do it without hurting myself immensely in the process.

KotOR doesn't have a really good balance when it comes to dark/light actions, or, more accurately, it doesn't represent a realistic spectrum of human morality. Most actions/dialogue choices are neutral (even if they shouldn't be), the 'good' options are either being basically decent or up the Jedi Order's lower orifice, and the 'bad' options are usually 'I'll kill this defenseless guy for a bit of cash' and occasionally...something really not bad at all, arguably?

So that contributes greatly to the fact that my character is usually surrounded by blue fog with a sweet little smile on her face and her hands behind her back like a ten year old church-girl (Sorry, Merith, really.)

Buuuuut also, I don't like being a cartoon-y villain Sithy jerkbutt; it's not who I am, and it's not who my character is.

Plus, if you decide to go dark at the very end
Show spoiler

Zerimar Nyliram 07-17-2015 11:12 PM

Sort of, but KOTOR's morality is sort of unrealistic, unlike Mass Effect which has more plausible moral choices. I legitimately feel like the galaxy's biggest A-hole when playing renegade, but feel largely disconnected when playing dark side. KOTOR is more like, "Kill the bunnies" or "Don't kill the bunnies."

[Edit] Pretty much exactly what the gentleman above me said. Although I'll admit that the dark side resolution to the Sandral-Matale feud is probably the single darkest moment in the game, whether it was intended to be so or not (I'm guessing not).

Griffin Raynor 07-18-2015 04:53 PM

Gentlewoman, actually. I suppose my name and Malak icon are a bit misleading.

Haha, killing the bunnies vs not is a great way to describe the ds/ls balance.

Could you remind me what happens in that dark side resolution? I've never played it and I barely remember it from watching/reading about it.

Zerimar Nyliram 07-18-2015 05:07 PM

Ah, my bad. I always imagine people as looking like their avatars, which is odd when I read my own posts because then I effectively imagine myself as a nine-year-old Jake Lloyd.

Basically, you can convince the families to kill each other's kids and stop there, or you can have them completely slaughter each other. I always thought it seemed a tad far fetched and out-of-place, especially considering how early it happens in the game.

Griffin Raynor 07-18-2015 05:12 PM

Haha, no problem. I do the same.

Yeah, I think I'd agree. But honestly, as much as I love the game, there is a lot that's far-fetched or hard to believe. I mean, how many times can you straight up kill people and neither Bastila nor Carth will say anything? But they get onto you for smaller stuff all the time.

R2-X2 08-02-2015 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zerimar Nyliram (Post 2864092)
Sort of, but KOTOR's morality is sort of unrealistic, unlike Mass Effect which has more plausible moral choices. I legitimately feel like the galaxy's biggest A-hole when playing renegade, but feel largely disconnected when playing dark side. KOTOR is more like, "Kill the bunnies" or "Don't kill the bunnies.".

That's pretty spot on. I only recently got Mass Effect, and I can play a 70% Renegade 30% Paragon character and feel pretty well, many choices even seem like ones I'd take as a person. But when playing KotOR, I have a really hard time doing dark side, it just feels wrong and pointless.

Only did it so far in order to see the different story, but afterwards never again.

Knight Of Honor 08-06-2015 06:41 AM

Personally I've had many characters fall to the dark side and it doesn't feel good. It's horrible, and it makes me depressed. However, I don't want to go dark side, but it happens because I feel as if many of my characters just aren't that great, and I feel frustrated with the process (role-playing).

When a character isn't living up to certain standards it will eventually experience a slow detoriation towards the dark side. It's my way of admitting that the character I created failed. It wasn't good enough. If a character isn't clearly defined OOU, then its very likely it won't succeed IU. A well developed character is much more likely to succeed (light side). If BioWare had actually had a more mature - and complex take on morality and ethics, a dark side character could've been an realistic alternative.

My best playthroughs are always light side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zerimar Nyliram (Post 2864092)
Sort of, but KOTOR's morality is sort of unrealistic, unlike Mass Effect which has more plausible moral choices. I legitimately feel like the galaxy's biggest A-hole when playing renegade, but feel largely disconnected when playing dark side. KOTOR is more like, "Kill the bunnies" or "Don't kill the bunnies."

I agree. BioWare definitely had to learn some lessons from this mistake. KOTOR's morality was very black & white, while Mass Effect was much more mature in that regard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R2-X2 (Post 2864659)
That's pretty spot on. I only recently got Mass Effect, and I can play a 70% Renegade 30% Paragon character and feel pretty well, many choices even seem like ones I'd take as a person. But when playing KotOR, I have a really hard time doing dark side, it just feels wrong and pointless.

Yeah, it's really bad. However, there are ways to play around it. You can act like a decent Jedi most of the time, while also picking a lot of neutral dialogue options, before making the fatal decision later in the game. You can at least make it feel somewhat realistic.


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