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-   -   Too much realism? (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=23482)

Alan 10-06-2001 05:48 PM

Too much realism?
 
I have noticed that a lot of threads are discussing possible additions to the game to make it more realistic.
But is too much of this a bad thing?
I know it is an improvement for Kyle to have limited weapon-carrying capacity, but some things have gone too far.
While I appreciate realism and all the 'brilliance' it entails, I think that some really far-out weapons and aliens would make JK2 stand out from the rest of the FPS barrage.
After all, in Ep4, in the Mos Eisley cantina, we see two of the same species sitting at a table. One has distinctly alien hands, the other has very human-like hands. If George Lucas can allow a little unrealism into his creation, surely LucasArts and Raven can.

BTW, an interesting JK quirk. Finish a level while holding down F to use force lightning. Anytime you recharge mana now, you will throw lightning.

StormHammer 10-07-2001 03:10 PM

Well, I'm all for far-out weapons and stuff. Whatever makes the game fun and exciting.

There's nothing wrong with aiming for some realism, though, because it helps you to suspend your disbelief. I don't want to see 'Real-World' environments, for example, but I do want the environments in the game to appear real. That has more to do with lighting and textures than trying to make a level conform to some by-the-numbers standard for realistic construction. The same goes for other elements. You don't have to knock creativity on the head to make the gameworld seem more real. It is a game, after all, and set in a very diverse and very alien-oriented universe. ;-)

Of course everyone has their own ideas and opinions of what they want to see in the game...but at the end of the day it's up to Raven and Lucasarts. Raven has a good track-record of listening to the needs and wants of gamers...but I've no doubt they have a lot of their own cool ideas.

I guess there is quite a bit of material on these forums now for Mod-makers to work through after the final release. I'm sure they will attempt to introduce some features we have mentioned that may be lacking in the final game...and that, for me anyway, is a bonus.

So I don't think you have to worry too much. ;-)

Lord_FinnSon 10-07-2001 05:14 PM

I would only like to see little realism "tweaks" here and there like when you kill your enemy and he falls to the ground, he could randomly have gun in his hand or then it just flips away BUT doesn't stay hanging in the air. Someone also brought up an idea that other enemies could use guns that they find lying in the ground. ;) AND please, don't fade bodies away(except in multiplayer)...

[ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: Lord_FinnSon ]

StormHammer 10-07-2001 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord_FinnSon:
AND please, don't fade bodies away(except in multiplayer)...
Heh...that gives me another idea. If it's a problem having too many bodies on screen at the same time, instead of fading them, why don't they get stormies to drag away injured comrades, and have a designated clean-up droid to drag away the dead?

I agree about the gun thing, too. ;-)

StephenG 10-07-2001 06:53 PM

clean-up droid, i like that

[ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: StephenG ]

Lord_FinnSon 10-07-2001 07:24 PM

Actually, in Behind the Magic's "Weapon Comparison Test Bay" you can see a glimpse of spider like droid or appendage that drags away dead stormtrooper. BTW, I really love that dance! :D

[ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: Lord_FinnSon ]

Kurgan 10-07-2001 07:40 PM

Personally I think that some of the suggestions people have been making *could* be added into the game without making it too off balanced. For example the way in which Unreal Tournament (and several recent Unreal Engine games with multiplayer) made use of "mutators" that were slight variations in the gameplay that could be switched on/off and combined to throw in some variety to online games.

Stuff like "realistic damage" or "limited carrying capacity" might be easier done that way. So that people who didn't like them could just skip using them, but those who did, could. Rather than making single player and multiplayer carbon copies of each other, I think Raven/LEC realizes that there is a distinct difference in the two gameplay modes. Now perhaps continuity is a big concern in many people's minds. Ideally then, Multiplayer would be balanced and single player would have many of the same conventions carried over.

But then, I admit, that after playing the single player campaign of any game, then switching to multiplayer, I basically have to learn it all over again anyway, since playing against a few AI and going through scripted objectives is different than playing against live opponents, with different objectives.

So to sum up, I'd like to see some of the better ideas used as "mutators" (options that can be toggled in the menus by the server admins) if possible.

Kurgan

Vagabond 10-08-2001 02:21 AM

Agreed, the best answer for most of these types of discussion is to simply provide users options, which is a rather brilliant, yet anti-climatic solution. However, the interesting discussion comes in the actual possibilities for these options. As has already been mentioned, some might be:

1. Location-specific damage. Head shots are nearly always fatal, while body and leg shots are less so.

2. Realistic damage (and effects - you get shot in a leg, then you run slower).

3. Limited carrying capacity. If you attempt to carry 20 weapons, with 500 rounds each, you'll likely break your spine and won't be able to budge from that spot.

Others might be:

4. Limited running endurance. As you run, you'll start to loose energy until you're forced to rest. Perhaps in MP this statistic can be modified similar to how force points were allocated in JK...you can bump up/down your health, stamina, speed and other interesting stats.

5. Realistic running speed. The days of Cheetah-like speed are over, unless you invoke Force Speed, or take some metabolically enhancing drugs.

6. Believable blood and gore; not gratuitious and absurd, but accurate - showing that violence has consequences, but not in the absurd way that gore is depicted in Quake-ish games - no offense.

Something to think about...

SlowbieOne 10-08-2001 04:24 AM

Yes hopefully there will be many options that offer many different ways to play.

After all, that's what made JK so great.

cossack1812 10-08-2001 10:29 AM

did jedi knight ever have location damage?
if not i hope like crazy that they include that in JKO
and the mutators would be cool, cos like in UT i would lower the grav and have a saber fight
try it in rune, tis fun

ReAcToR 10-08-2001 10:53 AM

I hope to see alot of the above ideas inhibited, but I have faith that Raven/LEC know where to draw the line with realism. Star Wars is great because it has a little realism with alot of fantasy/science-fiction. Fantasy is based on unreal elements but science-fiction is based on what may be, one day. Flying to the moon was once science-fiction. There is alot of room for realism with science-fiction, but because of the fantasy, they need to draw a line. Lucas has always done so, and I'm sure Raven/LEC will as well.

Lord_FinnSon 10-10-2001 05:22 PM

Here are few examples of realism that Raven could try to integrate as part of JK2, because some of them have already been done before and help immersion to the game:

1) When killed characters fall to the ground, their limbs or part of the body should never go through structure. Same as when Kyle walks over those bodies, he can't set his foot through them.

2) Plants move aside and trees shake when characters/animals move close to them. Also, trees should fall to the ground, if shot or slashed with lightsaber.

3) While walking on a watery terrain, it slows down movement depending on how much of characters bodies are underwater. As they emerge from the water, they leave little puddles behind them.

4)Characters leave footprints into snow or mud, and we can see Kyle's breath evaporating in a cold climate.

You got something more to add? :D

Jedi Howell 10-10-2001 05:37 PM

Maybe birds for outdoor landscape?

And falling leaves for certain climates, certain trees are climable. And no crappy running animations for climbing ala HL/CS...possibly(this is probably going too far) mice/rodents for outdoor areas, like the alien cockroaches in HL. And swaying kelp for underwater areas.

In market-type areas, I want civs that converse w/ eachother, buy things, and drive things. I also would like to see some real civ traffic, with them going places, and for certain types of civilizations, riding creatures as well as walking to get there.

jh

virtualoctopus 10-10-2001 05:42 PM

why not have the movement speed relative to the amout of stuff your carrying - so if you have tons of weapons you move really slow!

StormHammer 10-10-2001 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord_FinnSon:
1) When killed characters fall to the ground, their limbs or part of the body should never go through structure. Same as when Kyle walks over those bodies, he can't set his foot through them.
Isn't that down to collision-detection? I thought they said that was going to be improved using the modifications to the engine?

Quote:

2) Plants move aside and trees shake when characters/animals move close to them. Also, trees should fall to the ground, if shot or slashed with lightsaber.
That would be a nice bit of polish, and not too difficult to implement. Rune used a skeletal system for some of the foliage, which moved when you brushed against it. As GHOUL 2 (which includes a skeletal animation system) is being used in JK2, I would think a similar effect could be implemented fairly easily.

Quote:

3) While walking on a watery terrain, it slows down movement depending on how much of characters bodies are underwater. As they emerge from the water, they leave little puddles behind them.
I seem to recall that in JK the force of water flow affected your speed, when in water channels, etc. As for water-logged terrain...I would imagine it is possible. I remember the swamp level in Heretic II...where you got sucked down if you fell in. That would certainly impede your progress. :D

Quote:

4)Characters leave footprints into snow or mud, and we can see Kyle's breath evaporating in a cold climate.
Have you ever played Soldier Of Fortune? All that was done in SOF, and very nice it was too. ;-)

As for any other little touches, how about...

1. If you could shoot the lights out, it would be nice if that area actually went dark. You could use it for stealth (if shot from a distance), or to charge into a room of enemies using infra-red goggles/Force Seeing, and cause absolute mayhem.

2. Improved water effects would be very welcome - like reflections, depth of view (fogging/shading), character shadows on water, refraction, ripples/waves, that sort of thing.

3. No exploding boxes/crates. I have to say I found them annoying in JK. Also, it's a bit unrealistic finding crates on nearly every level. ;-) I'd like to see some more original devices used for delivering up shields/ammo...like dead bodies (outside of inhabited areas), storage cupboards in rooms, some wrecked vehicles, a predator's lair, shops that trade in weapons/ammo/armour (like in the Baron's Hed level), or hidden in a dugout cave as a cache. It would make more sense, encourage more exploration and keep things interesting, instead of seeing a crate and thinking "Oh, there's a crate with my next ammo/shield/battery".*delete as appropriate*

If I think of more, I'll let you know. ;-)

[ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: StormHammer ]

Lord_FinnSon 10-10-2001 07:38 PM

First of all, I mostly took these ideas from Rune(I have only played SOF demo), but I still have one little thing from Star Trek: Deep Space 9 - The Fallen(mercy, please! :eek: ):

5) If Kyle is standing on the edge of a hill, for example, and he has only one foothold, he tries to find balance until player moves him to "safety".

I think it looked really cool and might also be done easily... ;)

[ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: Lord_FinnSon ]

WinterJedi 10-10-2001 07:45 PM

I'm all for more realism!

SlowbieOne 10-10-2001 09:51 PM

Quote:

Stormhammer: 3. No exploding boxes/crates. I have to say I found them annoying in JK. Also, it's a bit unrealistic finding crates on nearly every level. ;-) I'd like to see some more original devices used for delivering up shields/ammo...like dead bodies (outside of inhabited areas), storage cupboards in rooms, some wrecked vehicles, a predator's lair, shops that trade in weapons/ammo/armour (like in the Baron's Hed level), or hidden in a dugout cave as a cache. It would make more sense, encourage more exploration and keep things interesting, instead of seeing a crate and thinking "Oh, there's a crate with my next ammo/shield/battery".
Funny you say that because I was just thinking earlier today that the old "come to a door, find the key, come back to the door-scheme" is getting a little overused. Not the same thing but it's along the lines.

Almost every level in Jedi Knight uses this type of puzzle at least once if not more than once. JK is one of my favorite games, but that is one thing about it that bothered me. I remember parts when I would be really into it, then it would seem weird because you have to go looking around the level for the room with a bunch of stormtroopers guarding the key.

I could understand if you came to a locked door with some officers guarding, blasted them and took the key away from whomever was holding it, in order to open the door behind them. It's just getting old in my opinion. Am I alone on this? :confused:

What I am saying is I can think of dozens of new ways to implement puzzles besides the tried and true "key search." Especially in a game like Star Wars:Jedi Knight 2.

Thankfully Jedi Outcast will supposedly have more emphasis on the saber, so this issue could be cured.

I say if you they are gonna make a key puzzle, don't bother. Just leave the door open. But that's just my opinion. :D

I don't know if this is considered too much realism, but I say start removing the cheesy factors from games, unless they are cheesy games themselves. But a game like Jedi Knight should be considered very serious. I'm not trying to say take away from the humorous side of Star Wars, but it's the little things that can take away from a game.

I'm just happy this game is in the hands of Raven. :)

Kurt Plummer 10-11-2001 03:27 AM

IMO,

The basic problem of JK1 hand positioning is that it was in no way natural but always (limited animation framing) fighting dedicated.

With this in mind, how you move should be selectable not only as a class, clothing or combat-movement condition basis but purely individually by size, species (heh! it's SW!:-) and gender as well as culturalized posture.

Unfortunately I doubt if we will have that many models, but it's something Raven might look into for MP so that we can customize more than skins and/or at least select from several 'skeletal morphs'.

Crates are fine it's the fact that they explode (making sabre breach expensive) and the fact that they are so conveniently 'bite sized' that makes them immersion killers.
More variety of both cache-location and /useful objects/ (power is power and it might be in many different 'appliance' classes that could be 'plugged in' to your weapon charging port as much as stylized clips).

I agree that excessive puzzlery is a pain and is part of what turned me off of TPM the game. I think people confuse adventure with organization and the need to do three things to make a bridge extend versus the ability to simply do a superhuman leap and enjoy the experience of having done the impossible (for instance).

That said, there's nothing wrong with making the _consequences_ of some actions more difficult such as blowing out the controls of a door to keep a squad of angry Imps at bay only to find that you have deactivated the bridge and have to rewire the panel or otherwise 'manually bypass' the problem.

That said, military is very fond of remote moating and isolation strategies like kill corridor 'boxes' where an action cannot be controlled from the point of occurance and where you have to be 'inspected in isolation' between an outer and inner ward before passage. These kinds of traps and dangers would be interesting to work through, either by compelling someone to operate the controls, operating them yourself with The Force, or simply 'doing things the hard way' slowly hacking apart a door or going through a wall with the lightsabre (might activate a short cutscene when wish-selected rather than physically interacting with ALL the world types).

The key here is to make yourself feel brilliant or at least 'very determined' /without/ all the single-path folderol of 'talk to the gutter rat to find the key, kill the guardian to get the key, unlock the gate and go through'.

The Marines call it 'improvise to overcome' and together with FIREPOWER; it is the heart of what makes a combat game different from everyday humdrum life.

In this case, 'enhanced realism' is not the way you do things but WHO you feel like when doing them.

A nerd with a crossword puzzle and a pencil protector or a big bad Jedi Knight with a swingin' blade 'this

[ ]

long!' ;-)


Kurt Plummer

Denise 10-11-2001 03:41 AM

**chokes, coughs**

That's, uhhh... pretty short, there, Kurt. :D

HTML doesn't like whitespace, mayhaps? :D

StormHammer 10-11-2001 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowbieOne:
Funny you say that because I was just thinking earlier today that the old "come to a door, find the key, come back to the door-scheme" is getting a little overused. Not the same thing but it's along the lines....It's just getting old in my opinion. Am I alone on this? :confused:

What I am saying is I can think of dozens of new ways to implement puzzles besides the tried and true "key search." Especially in a game like Star Wars:Jedi Knight 2.
I have to say that I agree. It is a problem prevalent in many games, not just JK. Half-Life is another example...you have all that firepower at your disposal, but you can't open a door. Instead you have to clamber through the ventilation system, fight your way through a dozen bad guys, and get to the door from the other side just so you can take a Barney with you to the next section. I mean, how dumb is that when one of your weapons is actually a crowbar? :P

I don't mind using controls to open a door from another location - I liked the part in JK where you had to use Force Speed to get into that tower, for example.

I too get annoyed when you have to play a game of hunt the keycard. As you said, it mentioned somewhere that the saber will play a more important role in the game, so hopefully you will be able to cut through at least some doors if you wish.

Having said that, though, I would still prefer a couple of ways to enter buildings, or bypass security measures. Having two ways in, both with their own advantages/disadvantages, would be good.

Going back to that Half-Life example...if I had the choice to either open the door (by blasting/saber-cutting) and maybe pay the penalty in a heated fire-fight, OR go through the ventilation system to outflank my opponents - I would be happy.

Other ways in might be...

1. Hiding in a vehicle or droid (if large enough) and wait for it to go through.
2. Jumping over a wall if it's low enough.
3. Leaping up to an open window - or into a vent.
4. Donning a disguise.
5. Crawling through a sewage pipe.
6. Using Jedi Mind Trick on the guard in control of the door.
7. Use a nearby vehicle to crash through a door/wall (like in MotS).
8. Saber/Blaster fire to reduce the barrier to molten scrap.
9. Crack the code at a security panel, like in Dark Forces...but unlike DF, have enemies still coming at you intermitently.
10. Use a crowbar. :D

If you had a choice of two of those to get past each security door, it would be great, and enable you to make the decision whether to use stealth or just go in all-guns-blazing. ;-)

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: StormHammer ]

Myxale 10-11-2001 07:16 PM

More realism...cool why not ?!
;)
All the points you people have told..are fine ideas, Or platforms for a better JKO.

But we must keep in mind its still a 3D Shooter game.!!

Sure all realism aspects ...would made a game ...more like a simulation... : Imagine this---->
Jedi Knight Outcast...
An 3D Ego Shooter/Adventure/Jedi and Starwars Simulator.

There are a lot of "Setting" which can make a game becomes a expiriance..
But keep the Game in mind.....

:D

wardz 10-11-2001 07:29 PM

Good ideas peeps.


Kurt, I do english A level and I have read Wuthering Heights, Macbeth and Antony & Cleopatra. I have understood more of those than I have of your posts!


Can you just chill with the superfluous, hyperbolic lexis that you continue to implement in your posts? :D


wardz

StormHammer 10-11-2001 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Myxale:
...we must keep in mind its still a 3D Shooter game.!!

...There are a lot of "Setting" which can make a game becomes a expiriance..
But keep the Game in mind.....
I agree. I want an enjoyable FPS at the end of the day, with some nice features to enhance the gameplay. :)

However, I think the point I'm really trying to make in some of my posts, is that I'm a bit tired of some illogical design.

If the game developer is going to give you a crowbar and a nice arsenal of weapons, how can they logically prevent you from going straight through that fire-door in your path? Why make you go around half the level so you can just open it easily from the other side? Either don't give the player powerful weapons or crowbars in that situation, or make sure you design the door so it looks indestructable.

Or if they put a nicely textured glass window in a wall...how can it not break when you fire a rocket launcher at it? I would rather they just put in a wall without windows, and shove a poster on it if it really needs some colour.

The level design should assist you in your suspension of disbelief IMHO, and when it goes against what you think you should be able to do, it impacts your immersion in the game.

I'm all for puzzle-solving elements, and alternative routes if it improves gameplay, but it has to make at least some kind of sense. ;-)

SlowbieOne 10-11-2001 11:06 PM

Quote:

Stormhammer:
1. Hiding in a vehicle or droid (if large enough) and wait for it to go through.
2. Jumping over a wall if it's low enough.
3. Leaping up to an open window - or into a vent.
4. Donning a disguise.
5. Crawling through a sewage pipe.
6. Using Jedi Mind Trick on the guard in control of the door.
7. Use a nearby vehicle to crash through a door/wall (like in MotS).
8. Saber/Blaster fire to reduce the barrier to molten scrap.
9. Crack the code at a security panel, like in Dark Forces...but unlike DF, have enemies still coming at you intermitently.
10. Use a crowbar.
I'm just guessing these came off of the top of your head. Imagine what we could come up with here if we all thought really hard about it. :)

Certainly more interesting things than a regular old key.

If Soldier of Fortune is any indication of Jedi Outcast, hopefully Raven will steer clear of the keys(maybe 1 or 2 instances would not bother me a bit, but more is just too unoriginal to me).

ESPECIALLY in a universe like Star Wars. :cool:

StormHammer 10-11-2001 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowbieOne:
I'm just guessing these came off of the top of your head.
Guilty as charged. :D They popped right in there as I was typing.

Quote:

Imagine what we could come up with here if we all thought really hard about it.
So get posting already! :eek:

SlowbieOne 10-12-2001 03:14 AM

Quote:

Stormhammer:So get posting already!
As soon as Jedi Knight 2 was announced, me and a few friends decided we are gonna make a Total Conversion provided Raven and Lucasarts allow editing (actually I'm praying for it,heh).

We have a site we are toying with, but we won't launch it until LA officially announces the availibility of editing.

It will be based on Luke Skywalker and will span around 30 years (yup, we have BIG plans!) We have all been doing a ton of research too make it as close to the Star Wars universe as possible. It won't consist solely of events that really took place and the new story elements we are adding are really starting to get interesting.

Of course one thing holding us back is not knowing JK2's story yet.

ANYWAY, we have many original ideas for levels, cutscenes, and everything in general that will make this seem like anything BUT a game. Basically we are bored with what is considered "the norm" for most levels in most FPS'ers. I can assure you we have ideas that I haven't seem in FPS'ers. Which finally brings me to my point.

I would post some ideas but we have what I consider good original ideas, and we would like to suprise people with them. You'll just have to wait a few years! :D
But I promise we will deliver if editing is allowed, no matter how long it takes. ;)

We are certainly not getting serious at all about this until we get the word, but it doesn't hurt to plan ahead. If anyone is interested in hearing more or possibly interested in helping drop me an e-mail @... roncoallstar@aol.com

GonkH8er 10-12-2001 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowbieOne:
<STRONG>
As soon as Jedi Knight 2 was announced, me and a few friends decided we are gonna make a Total Conversion provided Raven and Lucasarts allow editing (actually I'm praying for it,heh). </STRONG>
Oh, so standard jk2s NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU, eh? :P

StormHammer 10-12-2001 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowbieOne:
I would post some ideas but we have what I consider good original ideas, and we would like to suprise people with them. You'll just have to wait a few years! :D
But I promise we will deliver if editing is allowed, no matter how long it takes. ;)
Fair enough. ;)

As I said before, there is a lot of good material in these forums for the mod-making community already, and no doubt a lot more that hasn't been discussed.

Good luck with your TC...I just hope it doesn't infringe any copyrights, or you might find it being shut down before you've really started. :(

SlowbieOne 10-12-2001 03:09 PM

I never said it wasn't good enough Gonk! Don't be a h8ter! :)

We simply want to add to what will already be one of the best games ever.

Quote:

Stormhammer:Good luck with your TC...I just hope it doesn't infringe any copyrights, or you might find it being shut down before you've really started.
Thanks for the vote of confidence Stormhammer. I was under the impression that since we would be making a Star Wars game within a Star Wars game, there would be no infringement if editing was legal. Is there something I might be overlooking? :confused:

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: SlowbieOne ]

StormHammer 10-12-2001 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowbieOne:
Thanks for the vote of confidence Stormhammer. I was under the impression that since we would be making a Star Wars game within a Star Wars game, there would be no infringement if editing was legal. Is there something I might be overlooking? :confused:
Let us all assume that editing and mod-making will be allowed for JK2. Let us also assume that the game will come with it's own editor, and a variety of skins and alien models (particularly for MP, I would imagine).

Let us even assume that one of the models available will be Luke (who you hinted would be a focus of your mod).

All of those things are copyrighted...but if JK2 allows mod-making, then you should be able to freely use most of the game's content, including textures, to make mods - as long as you only use whatever editor comes with JK2. That is pretty standard. By granting you the ability to make mods, they are effectively granting you the use of the game's standard content within those mods - along with any of your own, original artwork/creations.

Now let's say you want to use a readily identifiable character model that does not come as part of JK2...a character that may be critical to the mod you want to make. If that character is not included in the content of JK2, it's copyright technically would remain outside of the context of the game. Therefore, to use that character, you would need to seek permission to model/skin it.

The same rule really applies to any specific model/skin from the Star Wars universe that is not included in the game.

If you can make your mod using only the content in the game, plus any of your own original art/models etc., there should not be a problem.

Hope that helps. ;-)

SlowbieOne 10-13-2001 01:07 PM

That was a very helpful bit of info.

Much appreciated Stormhammer. :)


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