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Old 12-08-2003, 03:18 PM   #104
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Join Date: May 2002
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
True, and I doubt God ment for "christians" (keep in mind, i seriously doubt they are christians) to blow up abortion clinics, and murder doctors.[/B]
Take a look at this Salon.Com. In this, the brother of Eric Rudolf (the abortion clinic, lesbian bar, & Olympic bomber) is quoted:

Jamie attributed his brother's anti-government views to a period in the early 1980s when his mother hauled them off to a Missouri commune run by the "Christian Identity" movement, which espouses militant white-power views.

It doesn't matter how much you don't agree that he's "christian," but he thinks he is. A christian is one who believes that god sent jesus christ to earth to do his work. Period. Simply disagreeing with one christian cult's perception of christianity doesn't invalidate them. THAT is the same fundamentalist bull that keeps occuring in the Middle East among Muslims. The Shiites don't think Sunni are legitimate, the Wassabi don't like either of them..., etc.

The fact is, Christian Fundamentalism is a very dangerous movement in our country. Timothy McVeigh is a prime example of it. Eric Rudolf is another. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of Rudolfs and McVeighs just waiting for the right stimuli to start their terror.

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Actually, interesting. You say homosexuality is harmless, and theres nothing wrong with allowing it. But, the ten commandments statue wasnt exactly doing anything wrong.
By that, I'm assuming you're referring to the stone idol of christianity in the Alabama courthouse? Perhaps they should have left it in place. But then every other religion represented in the state should have the opportunity to place their own idols there as well. How do you think the "moral majority" would have responded if each of the 15 or so major Hindu gods had an effigy in place there? I'm a bit partial to Shiva, the Destroyer myself. Add a Buddha statue, a stone effigy of the Koran for effect and round it off with a statue of Ba'al in case he has any worshipers left.

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Remember, its not the bible's fault or God's fault that people do things. He commands, we can obey, or not obey. Hes not responsible for it.
I've yet to hear even one command or request made by any god. I've read and heard a few people claim various god's have commanded various things....

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 A christian cant use that to say you cant marry a black or white person.
I'm in agreement. I can even show in the christian bible where that shouldn't. But I can also see the passages that are misrepresented by many christians (whether you agree with their flavor of christianity or not) to do so. What I was saying wasn't that "one could argue against interracial marriage," but rather there are those that do.

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Yeah, think about how much we argue/debate online, and we dont even know each other. You think 2 people married together could live "peacefully" unless they both believe the same thing? Im not saying it couldnt happen, because it could, but it could also fail.
Where do you draw the line on beliefs? One thing I'm sure about in this world, is that there are no two people who believe in the same things. They might agree more than disagree, particularly with regard to religious sect/denomination/faith, but there will be disagreements within these agreements as well. If you say, "true Christians all agree....." then you are being naive or hopeful. Or both. I've seen it within this very thread.

Originally posted by ZDawg
I love it that every debate in this forum turns to an anti-Christian argument...
[personal opinion]Only because every debate ends up with someone quoting a biblical reason for a prohibition or taboo or other action. Ethics in modern society should be devoid of cult influances by christianity, islam, hindi, etc. Instead, the needs of the society should be considered above all else. If these needs create ethics and values that concur with one or more religious doctrines, then fine. If not.... throw the religion out.[/personal opinion]

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
The bible says homosexuality is wronge like 3 or 4 times.
That quote is the reason for me trying out the new personal opinion tag. It doesn't seem to be working right....

And herein lies the cause of the fundamentalist movement within the United States. The so-called "moral majority" or "religious right" consists of christians who generally stop their accredited educations at the high school level but continue on with their anecdotal educations through bible studies, political functions, prayer breakfasts, Saturday morning hair-cuts, etc. There's certainly a lot to be said positively in regard to this kind of social education, but there is a lot to critique about it too.

The result is a small percentage of the anecdotally educated population moving toward a fundamental christian perspective. Add to that the fact that the majority religion in the United States is Christian and you get a small population within the larger that can bend their ears and influance policy.

In fact, policy makers are greatly influanced by this fundamentalist movement, particularly right-wing conservatives of the Republican Party, but also a limited number in the Democratic Party. There is evidence that President Bush (the current) is recently influanced in this way. He made comments in the past that were counter to the fundamentalist movement and caught a lot of flak over it. He has since done a 180 degree turn and mentions god and evil like a Prophet of the Law. He's even been quoted to say something (paraphrased) like, "I've learned my lesson about criticizing their agenda."

This is dangerous for society as it will impede progress. Impediment of progress can greatly affect the nation's ecconomy. We are fast becoming a nation of limited progress and will be outpaced by Germany and Japan, both of which were greatly behind the United States in technology and ecconomy only 50 years ago. The newest innovations in technology are not largely American in nature. The future will include genetic technology, which is also frowned upon by the "religious right" and has it's own thread.

As a society, we can't even let our baseless predjudices go regarding homosexuality. To me, homosexuality is counterintuitive. I don't practice and cannot understand why someone would. But I don't think that is a basis for restricting their equal access to the law and legal advantages if they want to form relational unions and even create families.

In fact, I see it as an ecconomic advantage to the nation. More family units means higher spending on big-ticket items. More comprehensive insurance policies.

So, yeah, ZDawg, this is a anti-christian argument. I'd rather it weren't, but christianity has proven throughout history that it needs to be forced into submission to society and to yield to progress. I personally see religious texts such as the christian bible as valuable sources of wisdom, history, and ancestory. But I also see them as obstacles to the progress of humanity.

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