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Old 11-11-2005, 08:36 AM   #39
Lathain Valtiel
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 929
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Hotrod: It is so that single can kill in one good swing without cheating via the overhead back jump move, the catch is that only that one particular move can do it consistently (diagonal followed by jump and side swing followed by jump tend to just miss the instant kill mark presuming 100 HP and 25 shields), and said move leaves the single saberist wide (and I mean WIDE) open on the windup and recovery, with only I think three chains out of it assuming you don't jump: another overhead, a forward left short swing which has surprisingly bad block penetration and range for a red attack, and forward left short swing plus combo finisher overhead.

In contrast, while it is practically impossible (or at least I've never seen it) for staves to get a one-shot kill consistently without spinning butterfly, it is possible for staff to pretty reliably chain sideflip out of the majority of its moves, making it ridiculously risky to counter (unless you cheat as a single). For example, it is a fairly common scenario for a red user to send an attack down against a staffer who has just butterflied and should be recovering. What can happen is that the staffer then sideflips, which grants so much defense that the attack is usually utterly blocked judging from the white flashes and no enemy pain sounds. I mean, this is red style here. That should not be blockable so easily considering the hassle a user has to go through to land it and not get countered mercilessly.

As for evasion... Let's not kid ourselves. Unless the singler cheats, it is pretty easy to counter red for a staffer/dualists/yellow user after you get to a certain level. So what does that leave the single user to do against a staffer or a dualist, who is capable of far more guard-breaking damage over time? Use yellow. Which is demonstratably technically inferior in pretty much every fashion except forward strike range and single strike damage, which are both rather easily negated by the staff/dual's guard breaking tendencies, greater defense (lets not lie, yellow gets blocked ONE HELL OF A LOT by those two, and staff in theory gets a better yellow due to possible twitch abuse), and slightly greater speed. There's a reason that turtling works best on staves and duals (I'm leaning towards duals being best for it due to side swing arc and range).

I really can't buy the 'it depends on user' thing because staff.dual are just BETTER than single in multiple things, with single getting the short end of the stick with the most ways to blow past it.

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Saberist: It's not true that cheap staff tactics don't last long. Not true AT ALL. Have you even seen a really annoying staff or dual-using turtler, who doesn't attack unless to counter your swings? They last a VERY long time unless a single red user yaws past their block.

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And what's this about tables? I've never said anything about tables, I only mentioned observation data, which I actually have stored in my head from hours spent playing freaks. My only assertion regarding the data in and of itself is that it is very readily observable and confirmable at higher levels of NF saber play. I mean, do you really need a table to prove that staff and dual have better block, better guard penetration, and better damage/time due to them? Most of what I've stated becomes pretty obvious after awhile.


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