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Old 08-24-2006, 02:57 AM   #4
Dagobahn Eagle
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Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 3,513
Current Game: First Strike
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First shouldn't this be in the Gitmo thread where it belongs?
Shouldn't you address the things in that thread instead of dodgingly accusing us of "relativism", "terrorist-loving", or of posting in the wrong thread?

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What ever happened to American values?
I'm wondering about this, too. Three years ago there seemed to be a concensus among people that torture was wrong - then Bush does it and suddenly it's OK.

A year ago it was wrong to kill innocent civilians - then Israel does it and it's OK (and don't give me the Hizbollah fighter excuse - if someone blew up a bus in the USA with a rocket because they thought there were Michigan Militiamen aboard, you'd still call that terrorism).

Don't worry, the US made it out of the McCarthy-era, they'll make it out of the Bush II-era as well.

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You also have to look at your definition of torture [...]
I don't have a personal definition of torture. I use Amnesty's definition, which is "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person." This includes torturing someone to obtain information or a confession, to punish, intimidate or coerce, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind".

As SkinWalker wrote: "Calling a sphere a cube presents no corners." You can re-define things all you want, it won't change that it is torture. I can call a beach ball a hat all I want, it won't make the colourful spherical little thing will magically turn into a piece of attire. You can claim it's midnight during noon all you want, but it won't make it any darker.

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To be honest I'm not so worried about the issues of sleep deprivation and extreme temperatures [...]
You should be. It's torture, and it can litteraly drive a person insane from pain (so yes, it hurts). It sounds mild, but trust me, it's horrific.

To strike a rough analogy, the Chinese water torture of old (unless those dang Commies are still using it, you never know) sounds pretty mild, too. "Just water dripping on your forehead, come on, what's so wrong with water, haven't you ever taken showers?!". But it's still recognized by many as the most painful and horrific method of torture ever to be devised.

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1. When you have a loved one serving in Afganistan, it's hard to care for their well being..let alone petition for their fair treatment.
Tough luck. I've got five friends who've gotten raped, and trust me, I hate rapists. But I don't want to see people get tortured for rape, not to mention dragged off and imprisoned without fair trial just because someone suspects they've penetrated someone without consent.

Of course I wouldn't get off my butt campaign for their fair treatment myself, but I would want them to be treated fairly [unlike you, who stalls whenever someone tries to defend these detainees].

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2. They are not soldiers from a recognized military, they are not combatants from a Geneva signatory, they do not have papers and they did not have a uniform.

3. I don't think they're being tortured like other people are being tortured around the world so again it's a little hard to care.


Today, children, we're learning how to count! Won't that be fun! As an aid, let's count all the time Good Sir Knight and rccar have used the "they have no rights"-cliché! Come on, children, let's count with me!

One, Two, Three, Four, Five, Six, Seven, and Eight .

If you would stop spamming this disucssion with the same arguments over and over again, ignoring that they've actually been replied to, I'd be very happy.

The UN Declaration of Human Rights proves you wrong.


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 09-14-2006 at 01:59 PM.
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