Originally posted by SkinWalker:
There are conclusions that at least show that genetics *is* involved. What hasnt' been shown conclusively is that homosexuality is 100% genetic. Homosexual males have been demonstrated to be more likely than you'd expect by chance to have homosexual brothers as well as homosexual maternal uncles and cousins on the mother's side (Hamer, et al, 1993). Near the tip of the Xq28 region of the sex chromosomes, researchers have found five identical markers shared by a high percentage of homosexual brothers. The evidence of a hereditary nature to homosexuality is clear, moreover, the pattern of incidence confirms this.
Everyone always digs this study out, but they rarely note that its conclusions were not supported by another study conducted by Rice et al in 1999. Rice et al found no significant linkage between the xq28 chromesome and increased homosexual tendency.
It is perfectly possible that genetic involvement in the development of homosexual tendencies is negligible. It is conversely possible that the genetic linkage is quite appreciable. But there is insufficient evidence either way to make an informed judgement. The final answer is that we still don't know what the heck causes homosexuality. Could be 90% nature, could be 90% nurture. Could be 100% of either, but since nobody has very much compelling evidence, it's rather irrelevant to the debate to speculate.
Originally posted by Skinwalker:
The fallacious notion that same-sex couples can't reproduce was mentioned, but this is obviously not true. They just cannot reproduce with each other.
Is it just me, or is that rather stating the obvious? Like... "A man and a female bullfrog living in sin can
reproduce, just not with each other."
It's sufficient to say they can't have children together. Does that make me a froggist? A froggophobic?
When hardline religious people say "but gay people can't have children" I think by and large they're fully aware
of the possiblity of surrogate parents, artificial insemination for the ladies, and also the possiblity of adoption. It's just that they disagree with gay people doing any of THOSE things, too.
Originally posted by Skinwalker:
There is no logical reason to disallow and some very good reasons to legalize it.
Once again, the institution of state-sanctioned marriages should be disallowed FOR ALL. A couple of people have made the point that "well marriage isn't going to be phased out anytime soon, so it's better to allow gays to marry."
The only reason homosexuals have gained the right of civil partnerships is because people have campaigned for so long
for it to happen. If all that energy had been properly directed towards the abolition of marriage as a state-sanctioned perk, then we'd probably have got it by now. But no, people have to think only of the small picture.
All these silly campaigners and bleeding hearts have done, is to excascerbate an already existing injustice.
So now gay people can marry. Whoop-tee-doo. That means that all the rest of us, the people both homosexual and heterosexual who don't believe in marriage
, or are single, are now put upon by a slightly enlarged group of overpriveliged wedding-victims.
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle:
Look, homosexuality is not a choice. I realize it makes you feels better about being against homosexuality, but there is just no logical reason whatsoever to believe it. Look at all the people who committ suicide for being gay when they could instead just "choose" to become straight instead.
Sorry, but the assertion "if they could
choose not to be gay, they would
" doesn't hold water. Many people consciously choose to be reviled and oppressed. People choose to be vegetarian. People choose to be promiscuous. People choose to be prostitutes. And people, homosexual or not, largely commit suicide because they're depressed. Things like "I'm topping myself because I'm homosexual" are excuses, rather than reasons. If suicides could adequately see logic while they were depressed, they wouldn't kill themselves.
Bear in mind that I'm not saying that homosexuality is or is not a conscious choice. Logic dictates that some people who are more bi-sexual than others WILL be able to consciously choose one gender to lust after, more easily than the rest of us. But not all choices are instant, conscious choices.
How about the job you end up doing for your entire life? How did you end up in that job? Did you wake up one morning when you were seventeen and decide "Yep, from this day forth I will be office-man, defender of stationary supplies everywhere." Of course not. Most people will just drift into the job they end up doing. It won't be one conscious choice, it will be lots of little choices, subconscious and conscious, made along the way.
Yes, we chose
our lives. For most, it wasn't one single moment of clarity, it was a gradual progression.
Combined with natural, genetic predispositions of some unknown degree
, and social conditioning, I believe these three factors adequately explain the genesis all personality traits, not just sexual predilictions.