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Old 11-28-2006, 10:16 PM   #25
Nancy Allen``
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This is quite obviously not on the original topic, but it's right here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
I highly doubt that the US government would have any qualms at all about re-introducing the draft, should they feel the need to invade somewhere else and start a war on a third major front. After all, they'll need the troops in such an eventuality. And frankly, a little propaganda here, a little scare-mongering there... and the US public would shut up and accept it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
So in effect, you want to punish committed moralists for being so... so... so MORAL!

I may have couched that sentiment in a non-serious way, but I'm very serious, and it's a very serious issue. Anyone who objectively looks at the armed forces of any major world power cannot fail to realise that those armies are literally there to enact the immoral will of corrupt power centres. Therefore anyone who wishes to participate by joining the army is either poorly informed or worse, amoral themselves.

Your idea of emulating the policies of other nations that demand national service is tantamount to desiring that those who disagree with the army's perennially immoral acts around the world should be FORCED to participate in those acts. And if they don't wish to participate, they're to be treated like criminals and do community service.

Quite reprehensible, in short.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
Maybe Godwin should elaborate:
Law II: When pressed for answers or confronted with evidence that the US isn't always the Good Guys, neocons will attempt to say really stupid things like, "If you think the US shouldn't have invaded Iraq, then you hate Bush and think the US shouldn't have fought Hitler either! Oh, and invading Iraq was a mistake. I can throw tantrums about that and not look like an idiot while still slamming anyone who doesn't support the ongoing occupation, right?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
And for the two-hundredth time, Iraq was not a "mistake". There was nothing accidental about it. It was an intentional invasion to supplant a government unfriendly to US financial interests, with a government that is friendly to those interests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
Instead of honouring their sacrifices, the government is sweeping them under the rug and treating them like a dirty little secret that shouldn't ever be shown or mentioned. By doing so, they're just trying to keep the voting public confronted with as few reminders as possible that the war the US started really is a shooting war, not just some abstract concept of something going on "over there", far away from anyone's daily life. And the more remote and abstract it becomes in the public's mind, the less important it becomes to stop it or pay close attention to just what the US government is running around doing.
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Originally Posted by Spider AL
So there are several ways to solve the problem we have created... but we're not going to do it! Oh happy day!
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Originally Posted by Spider AL
The idea that showing anonymous coffins on a news report would decrease your personal safety in any meaningful way is ludicrous, bordering on paranoia. I can only assume that it's indicative of the same culture of fear that resulted in broad US public quiescence when confronted with the totally mis-named "Patriot Act".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
By concealing such powerful images from the public as pictures of the returning US/UK dead, the US/UK power centres are merely serving their own interests and using the "feelings of the family of the deceased" as a convenient excuse. And why? Because such images might spur more citizens into speaking out against the invasion. That's the last thing they want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Ah! The old "I pay my taxes... so I should get to decide what you can and cannot do and see and watch!" fallacy.
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Originally Posted by Spider AL
I called your statement amounting to "If we show pictures of the soldiers coffins, their family home could well be broken into and the family victimised!" ludicrous, bordering on paranoia. Which it clearly is.
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Originally Posted by Spider AL
Ohhh quote it all, Jae, quote it all. You dared to type "if it means that some anti-war groups aren't able to get their yukks out of seeing a bunch of coffins, too bad." Suggesting that anti-war people would laugh at images of dead American soldiers. Is this REALLY the image you have in your head of the way Anti-war people think and feel? If so, you're deluded. If I were to be uncharitable, I'd suggest that such vitriolic lies totally invalidated any opinions you might hold on all related topics.
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Originally Posted by Spider AL
Wrong once again. And quite a glaring error too. If I'm "railing" against anything, it's the sentencing of Saddam by this immoral and illegal court.
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Originally Posted by Spider AL
I realise that the sentence of the court, the court, and the government that appointed the court are all morally tainted.
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Originally Posted by Spider AL
The fact that I calmly recognise their amorality doesn't mean I'm their rabid foeman. But if YOU don't recognise their amorality, that does rather make you wilfully ignorant.
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Originally Posted by Spider AL
So yes, he "set out to kill the people", in the same way that a mugger who beats people up and steals their cash "sets out to beat people up". Even if he has an ulterior motive for his violence, his violence is intentional and part of his crime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
COURSE Bush and his buds intended to kill Iraqi civilians! There was absolutley no way to invade Iraq without doing so! Hell-oooo...! They knew that all along, and they ignored international law to go in anyway. The US invasion has killed far more people than all the suicide bombings in Israel and 9/11 combined.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
The gassing of the Kurds occurred in the early 90's after Desert Storm, and the US just sat back and watched him do it. They didn't intervene to prevent this, they just trot out Saddam's crimes to justify the war now.

And btw, the US did just leave Vietnam to communism in 1973, and it didn't do a damn thing about the Nazi takeover of Europe. The US only entered WWII in December 1941, long after the Nazis had swept through western Europe and were busy fighting the Russians, remember?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
I said and still say that since the US government were perfectly aware of the potential cost of their invasion in Iraqi civilian lives but went ahead anyway, they are guilty of intentionally causing the deaths of the civilians. They knew the civilians would die en-masse, but they went ahead anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
As for individual soldiers, they're not guilty of the war crimes the US government is guilty of. Soldiers are only guilty of the lesser immoral act of ignorantly signing up to do the bidding of a clearly corrupt government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Oh believe me, I could have called professional soldiers much worse things. Like "wilfully ignorant puppets who abrogate responsibility for their actions more easily and willingly than they draw breath"... I think "noodle-heads" is a relatively mild- but accurate- description.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Is that the best you can do? "Well, half a million Iraqis may be dead because of us in the space of three years... But... umm... YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT SADDAM AND HIS EVIL SONS WOULDN'T HAVE KILLED HALF A MILLION PEOPLE TOO!!!!11"

I mean that's what you're implying, isn't it. Quite pathetic. Even when the man was intentionally massacring Kurds, he never broke the 200,000 mark. And as I understand it, that's the Kurds' own estimate of the Kurdish death toll. How the hell was he going to cause the number of deaths we've caused in the same space of time? And WHY would he do it? Your stance is pathologically propagandist in nature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
No, they're the people who really have to justify their actions to themselves and others. If you talk to a soldier who is fighting an unjust war, what's he going to tell you? "Oh yeah, I've been shooting people for no good reason." Of course he isn't going to tell you that. He's going to lie to himself and to you. Or better still, he'll just believe and repeat the obvious lies that his government has told him through his superiors. Much easier than making up your own falsehoods.
Okay, I admit "Bush is evil" was not once said, but the opinions behind these quotes, not to mention the rather trollish nature of some of them, are very clear.
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