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Old 12-20-2006, 03:32 PM   #27
Kurgan
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couple of disagreements

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterRoss08
Firstly Yoda is considered the leader of
all that is good and sidious the big baddie of evil.
True, however one of the points of the Prequels was also to show that
the Jedi made mistakes and may even have been succumbing to corruption.

Look at the anger in Mace Windu's eyes when he is about to murder Palpatine
in Episode III. Not exactly ideal Jedi behavior there! And Yoda preaches against
war and violence with the Force in ESB, but in the prequels he doesn't seem
to quite have such a problem with it...

Sideous is evil, yes, but that doesn't mean his opponents are perfect either (I am not defending the bad guys here, just saying the Jedi aren't perfectly good, otherwise you'd think they would have caught onto the plot sooner and stopped it).

Quote:
So to prove this while yoda and obi were at the temple obi saying that he
didnt want to face anikan but instead wanted to face sidious yoda replies
somthing like that you are not strong enough to face him either in the force
,pyhsical or both.
What I don't get is why they didn't BOTH go to face Sideous or Anakin. Surely both of them together would have been more powerful. Wipe out one Sith then the other, rather than splitting up. The good guys had no problem "ganging up" on their opponents before, why suddenly the more honorable approach of making it "fair" with a balanced battle? I never understood that.

And it's not as if Anakin was in a rush to get back to Sideous, he seemed like he was content to just hang around and brood after killing the Seperatists on Mustafar. Sideous didn't even consider going to him until he sensed he was in danger.

Quote:
So yoda goes and faces him but even yoda couldnt have
beaten him. Heck if he was younger than he was sure I can see him beating him
but idk if age was the factor. You saw yoda reflect the force with his hands
a ability that none of the other jedi did.
True, although in the novelisation of ROTJ, Luke bends back Palpatine's lightning with his hand, for a second or two, before he is overwhelmed.

Other Jedi seem able to block lightning with their lightsabers only.

Quote:
So obviously yoda was there best
chance if any to defeat sidious. I tend to think that sidious was in utter
horror of yoda stopping his attacks of lightning in the end. And besides
how can yoda grip him if both hands are tied up reflecting or
stopping sidious' lightning attacks?
True, but if he'd hung onto his lightsaber perhaps he could have been better off. And if he'd had Obi-Wan at his side, then it wouldn't matter if both his hands were "occupied"! He'd have Obi-Wan's two hands to help him.

Obviously it was a creative decision because Lucas wanted two simultaneous saber battles going on, but still...

Quote:
Besides even though some1 frowns doesnt mean he was doing anything evil.
I'm saying Force Lightning isn't always evil, hence I have no problem with Yoda using it, even if it might be some "unorthodox" or sneaky tactic according to Jedi doctrine. The battle with Sideous was far more desperate than the one with Dooku, yet Yoda uses this ability (to THROW lightning) only in the less dire situation... why?

This is only a problem for the people who say that "Force Lightning" is an evil Dark Side power that only Sith or high level Dark Jedi can use. Thus they have to explain why Yoda seems to throw a bolt of lightning AT Dooku. Not only is that an offensive use of Force, but it's also supposedly a power that only the bad guys can use with impunity. Thus they have a problem. It doesn't really bother me anymore than Luke choking Gammoreans or Qui Gon pushing droids around.

Quote:
Its an old guy taking on hmm idk how old sidious is but he deffinately had agility.
Palpatine is supposed to be about 63 years old in Episode III (assuming the "official" age of him given in TPM of 50 was accurate).

Dooku was supposed to be over 80 in Episode III and yet he's super powerful and moves faster than any old man could. Yoda hobbles with a cane! We know that the Force can make old infirm people move like the world's greatest acrobats and olympians. And just look at the Force combos that Dooku uses in Episode III.. very impressive! So mere physical age is not the sole determining factor in how these battles turn out, yes.

Quote:
So when senator organa showed
yoda sounded disapointed because he couldnt stop him which equals
no one could thus the republic ended.
But had Obi-Wan helped him, I wonder if it would have turned out differently. It seems like Yoda didn't think his plan through completely. Likewise, why did he give up? He didn't seem that badly beaten, and surely the arrival of a few stormtroopers wouldn't have been that much more challenging (look how easily Yoda dispatches them at other times, and Dooku's super battle droid escorts proved no challenge for Obi-Wan earlier).

Quote:
I tend to think the jedi went in hiding because they couldnt stop the threat
even with how good they were.
But they could still fight! Nothing really changed in 20 years except they got old and older and then they had to rely on a barely trained kid to fight for them? It seems like their chances for victory were greater in Episode III than IV-VI!

Plus, what would have stopped Obi-Wan and Yoda from BOTH going to Dagobah or Tatooine or Alderaan and raising the two children there, from birth? Pooling their resources? They only ended up training Luke anyway, so it's not like they would be putting all their eggs in one basket.

Quote:
On Lukes choking incadent. Hey cmon these are gamoreans to stupid to persuade.
I don't believe it. Obi-Wan informs Luke that the "weak minded" are precisely the best kind of people to trick with the Force. And AOTC proves that Anakin can even manipulate a wild beast (if you want to say the Gammoreans are like mindless animals or something rather than like people). And it's not like aliens (non-humans) can't be tricked, because Luke persuades Bib Fortuna (who is surely stronger willed than those Gammoreans, right?) soon after (and we get Boss Nass being tricked in TPM... apart from Stormtroopers and the Deathstick salesman, those are the only characters that have been tricked, Watto and Jabba seemed immune).

Quote:
so first thing on there minds would be to anihalate the intruder so waht he gonna
do.
We don't know that, they may just have wanted to arrest him (notice they just put up their spears to stop his approach, not start swinging/thrusting at him). Yoda reacts in a similar fashion to the Red guards in Episode III, except he Force slams them both into the wall, rather than choking them individually.

Quote:
Im pretty much sure Luke had to show an impression to that twilak so
he will take him to jabba.
Except Luke was already practically in the inner chamber when he tricked Fortuna (I'm sure he could have found his way the few steps to the main audience chamber), and Bib didn't lead him anywhere, he just went back to his place by Jabba.

Quote:
On considered light darkside powers. Hey can you possibly imagine a light side
person use lightning?
I don't need to imagine it, I see Yoda do it in AOTC. The games also show us "Light Jedi" throwing lightning, and we see some form of green lightning described in some of the EU (I believe it's in the New Jedi Order series, but I haven't read those).

Quote:
or choke?
Even without the games, I don't need to imagine it since we see Luke do it in ROTJ.

Quote:
lightning and choke can be considered
bad powers due to there intent. Choke and lightning mean to do harm to
a living being.
And Force push or throwing your lightsaber into their chest aren't? C'mon.

What if your intention was to choke them unconscious to incapacitate (rather than kill), or to use lightning to stun them (like a stun gun) rather than kill?

Which is nobler, to slice off somebody's arm with a charred stump, or to make their clothes a little toasty and their hand stand on end?

Quote:
So I guess you can say im a its how you use them type.
LIght doesnt use them as tools for power etc while darkside does.
Well, you could still use force and other powers for "power." Jedi have no problem with mind trick, and that could be abused to have authority over others pretty easily. Qui Gon showed us that Jedi can cheat at dice, meaning they could clean out any casino and achieve vast wealth! (and if somebody catches you cheating, just mind trick them, heh).


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