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Old 05-18-2007, 12:26 PM   #58
Spider AL
@Spider AL
A well-spoken villain...
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Join Date: Jan 2002
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Originally Posted by Heavyarms
Ooh, an Iraq thread. I remember when the war started and we had debates. Oh, and hi Rogue15. I'm apparently back from the dead...
Hahaha, hello there Rogue, welcome back. Did you forget your password? You never used to post this much text, either. What have you done with the real Rogue15?

Originally Posted by Heavyarms
The United States can never be isolationist. For one, it would damage our economy irreparably if we did that and we'd fall on our faces and take at least several dozen countries with us.
The US might indeed suffer from an economically isolationist policy (though you're incorrect regarding "several dozen countries" following the US down the pan, that would seem to be a vast overestimate of America's worth on the world stage) but that doesn't mean that the US couldn't follow a militarily isolationist policy. And that would, as stated before, be morally superior to their current policy.

Originally Posted by Heavyarms
Two, September 11 showed us, or at least me, that even if we try our best to stay out of some peoples' business they'll still want to kill us, so we need to be proactive.
Actually Rogue, if you do a little research on the subject, (and I do mean only a little research,) you'll find instantly that the stated motive for the 9/11 attacks (stated by the US government, the 9/11 commission AND al-qaeda) was that it was retaliation against perceived injustices caused by US foreign policy.

So it wasn't a case of "The US was minding its own business and was then attacked", it was a case of: The US was acting as an oppressive imperialist power worldwide, some people didn't like it, and so they decided to resort to acts of immoral terrorism.

Attacks on civilians are always immoral, there's no debate about that. But to say that there was no REASON for the attacks is abject nonsense.

Originally Posted by Heavyarms
As for your comments Spider, I think about it this way: The U.S. Army can in the end not guarantee anyone's safety. Your local police department can't do that either. What good security requires is helpful citizens and residents to stop the bombings, shootings, and kidnappings.
Rubbish. It is nothing to do with "guaranteeing anyone's safety". It's to do with providing basic security to the Iraqi people.

If you want to discuss the relationship with Iraqi people, fine. Since the US and UK invaded Iraq illegally and immorally, it's OUR responsibility to engage with the Iraqi people and provide security, help and support to the public. It's OUR responsibility to endear ourselves to Iraqis, not the other way around. We have not done so. That's not the Iraqi public's fault, it's our fault. We're an invading force. It's not their responsibility to "like us" or to work with us.

Secondly, you're sitting there quibbling over WHY we aren't providing security to the Iraqi people. But that's hardly the overarching point. The point is that we AREN'T providing security. You can blame that on innocent Iraqis if you wish, but it doesn't alter the fact that we aren't doing very much good there. Hence, my earlier point stands, we should leave.

Originally Posted by Heavyarms
I really place a lot of the blame on the Iraqi people. Bush made his mistakes and stuff. But the Iraqi government (which was elected by the iraqi people, and is not a puppet government) can't get its own sorry collective butts together and make progress. Couple that with a weak PM who likes Iran, and we're in trouble. That has to change, but the people have to want it to.
1. Bush didn't make any mistakes, except when reading from his autocue. Bush had little to do with it, he's a figurehead. It's doubtful that he has any meaningful impact on US national policy.

2. You say the Iraqi government was democratically elected by the Iraqi people? The list of candidates was vetted by the US. (And anyone the US didn't like was prevented from standing). The Iraqi people had no advance knowledge of who they were voting for (and therefore had no idea of the candidates stances on any issues) and much of the Iraqi populace was either too resentful of US/UK forces to vote in such a sham, or too afraid of violent retaliation to risk voting.

You call that democratic? You call that "elected by the Iraqi people"? That's madness. The only thing one CAN call it, is a US puppet regime. It doesn't even qualify as a proper "government", frankly.

Originally Posted by Heavyarms
Couple that with a weak PM who likes Iran, and we're in trouble.
Hah! the US picked him, blame them.

Originally Posted by Heavyarms
I really place a lot of the blame on the Iraqi people. It's their country. They have to invest in its future for us to make a difference.
Once again you foist blame onto the Iraqi people. But they weren't to blame for:
  1. US support, funding and arming of Saddam, the brutal dictator and his brutal regime during the eighties, support that cost the Iraqi people their lives and infrastructure
  2. The decades of economic sanctions that crippled the Iraqi people and made them even more dependent on Saddam, the brutal dictator and his brutal regime, meaning that the Iraqis were incapable of overthrowing his government
  3. The US policy that drew Iraq into Kuwait, in the early nineties, causing the first Gulf War, which further impoverished the Iraqi people and caused the deaths of civilians and soldiers on both sides
  4. The repeated bombings of Baghdad that further butchered an already ailing people
  5. The recent illegal invasion of Iraq by the US and UK, which has caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians, and has destroyed what little was left of Iraq's national infrastructure
  6. The continued occupation of Iraq which acts as a focus for violence and will undoubtedly lead to more pointless death and destruction.

So what exactly ARE you blaming the Iraqi people for? It seems to me as if the US and the UK have the whole "culpability" thing sewn up.

[FW] Spider AL
Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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