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Old 10-09-2007, 04:43 PM   #97
Jediphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipmonlee
But I'm not basing anything on those planets locations. The Unknown Regions, for example, are at the same place, whatever the source you use, and yes, that's been consistent all the way.
Yet you pointed to the TSL-map as your basis for where Malachor would be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipmonlee
Korriban is related to whatever Sith you may be talking about because that's were the Sith came from. So, whatever Sith group you make up, Korriban will be connected to them. Now, as for Malachor, that's a whole different story, and again, nothing we know about it tells us that it was related to the Ancient Sith empire. On the contrary, it was author's intention to be placed next to the Unknown Regions, ie: far from the Old Sith territory:

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1724/kotor2col6.jpg

This is taken from K2. While it contains some discrepances, it's quite clear that the devs wanted to place Malachor in the UR. I don't see how they can be connected to the Old Sith whatsoever.
Having said this, you cannot now say that you're not basing your assumption on those planets locations. It is precisely what you did here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipmonlee
And I don't see what's the problem. The NEC was precisely made to retcon those locations. The map I gave you is based precisely on the NEC, and it's quite clear. K1 maps, for example, misplaced everything. And even if we considered K1 maps cannon, the issue remains that Korriban (and the other sith worlds) are on the opposite side of the galaxy.
Which is why I question the maps as a basis. They are completely inaccurate. Yet you still pointed to the TSL map as your basis for Malachor V being in the unknown regions as stated on the greater map, whereas I look at what is established by comments in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipmonlee
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound that way. The point is that I'm basing Malachor's location textually. K2 map was simply posted to show author's intention.
The TSL map is the only basis you've given for claiming Malachor is where you claim it is. Indeed, looking at the text, it is quite obvious that Kreia says both Korriban and Malachor are on the fringes of the Sith Empire, which I have already quoted several times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipmonlee
It was textually mentioned to be bordering the Unknown Regions as well.
Obviously, because that's where the Sith Empire is. You pointed to the map as the basis for claiming the Sith Empire was nowhere near the unknown regions. Well, it isn't by the map, which is still off by 4000 years, but looking at what's established by what is said in the game, there is no basis for claiming the Sith Empire is not in the unknown regions. Quite the contrary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipmonlee
"Coming from their homeworld at the Unknown Regions, the Rakata were the first species to produce a stable hyperdrive (...) By transporting these slave species to new worlds, the Rakata were believed to have inadvertently seeded swaths of the galaxy with sentient life in the known galaxy and the Unknown Regions"

"Just like the taboo-Mandalorian planet, Malachor V, which belongs to the Malachor system, nearby other worlds that would be instrumental to the destiny of the galaxy, like the homeworld of the Rakata, and the Chiss' ascendancy (...)".

The New essential chronology, October 2005 (post K2)

It's pretty clear that Malachor is next to the UR. Thus, it's highly unlikely that it belonged to the Old Sith empire, which explains why it wasn't cleansed by the Republic.
I don't see how that proves your position or disproves mine in any way. I have no problem with putting both Lehon as well as Malachor and the rest of the Sith Empire in the unknown regions, and this quote does not disprove that, nor does it conflict with what Kreia tells us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipmonlee
But it was placed on the other side of the galaxy by a most recent (canon) source...

The line "lies on the fringes of the empire" could be seen metaphorically, because even in K2 maps, the locations of Malachor and Korriban differ by a LONG shot.
They do, which is why I go by what the comments in the game establish. And your canon source has yet to place those planets at opposite positions, since your quote does not separate Malachor from the core worlds of the Sith Empire. Even if it did, it's still arguable, since we don't know just how large the Sith Empire really was in its time. We know a handfull of worlds that belonged to it, but I know of no source that takes pains to list them all...

And judging from clues in TSL, there is another problem with taking Malachor away from the Sith Empire, which deals with Onderon.

There are several clues in TSL which suggest that Onderon would be important during the coming struggle with the true Sith, and that Revan was aware of this.

GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force."

Disciple: "Onderon, strangely enough, was unaffected by the Jedi Civil War. It's almost as if Revan didn't want to attack it.Its position and resources on the Rim make it a vital supply line and a guardpost against Outer Rim attacks."

Kavar: "So the Council decided that we must not present ourselves as a target again. The consequences to others was just too great, that we should use our resources to find who was responsible and deal with them.I think you're the only one who's made progress.I know that all too well. I came here to find them, to trace them to their source. The war on Dxun and Onderon - I had thought that perhaps the tragedies that occurred here were concealing them.They wanted to aid General Vaklu in breaking away from the Republic. If Onderon became independent, this place would be an excellent staging ground for them.But I fear it was more than that, that the consequences of Onderon's fall would have greater implications for the galaxy."

Atton: "I don't like it - Onderon is about as far from the Core as you can get and still be in the Republic."

This all speaks of Onderon's position, suggesting that Revan did not attack it because he knew he would later need as an important post in the subsequent fight against the true Sith. At least, that was always my interpretation, and much of TSL leads straight up to that with the true Sith revealed as the coming threat at the end. Yet on the map you refer to - http://www.xs4all.nl/~wrvh/galaxymap/galaxymap_p1.jpg - Onderon is a complete non-factor against a strike from Lehon or a place close to it. It's on the wrong side of the galaxy for that. It's placed pretty well as a defensive position against the worlds of the Sith Empire, however...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipmonlee
What do you mean? Yavin is inmediately close to Korriban. That means Yavin IV could presumably be closer.
Huh? Obviously Yavin IV is in the Yavin system. And, as before, we're again faced with very conflicting maps. The map you seem to prefer places Yavin far from the Republic, fairly close to Korriban and Thule, whereas KotOR1 places at opposite sides of the galaxy.

The map you seem to prefer places Yavin right on the path between the Republic and the Sith Empire. Not a clever place for Sadow to hide, given that he was hunted by both - it would completely undermine the reasons why he hid there after the Great Hyperspace War, since it would have been a fairly obvious place to look for him - a habitable planet with no intelligent life very close to Korriban. Not sure how the Republic missed that one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipmonlee
uh?

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/7530/kotor1tc5.jpg

That's K1 map, and if my memory serves me well, the world on the top left corner is Lehon, which is clearly in the Unknown Regions, just like Malachor is in the Unknown Regions, and just like Korriban (in both games) is depicted on the other side of the galaxy.
I'm afraid not. The planet you refer to, the red one, is Yavin. You have unfortunately chosen a KotOR1 map from a point during the game when the Star Forge system (Lehon/Rakata Prime) has not yet been found. On that map Lehon is just to the left and below the galactic center, almost exactly half-way between Kashyyyk and Korriban.


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