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Old 10-22-2007, 12:31 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Ray Jones
It doesn't say that because people try to avoid thinking about that, and a proper answer is most probably going to render god immoral, a sinner or the whole thing itself useless.

Nope. It tells metaphoric stories, which are more of hypothetical nature rather than contemporary. Especially since the book is 2000 years old.

Err, please. Questions cannot irritate. However, obviously you just don't know a valid answer to my questions, and to cover that you accuse me of being irritating. You are irritated, indeed. Actually this is not due to my questions, but because you cannot answer them, and even more, you recognise that my questions arise a very good point.

How is that relevant to god removing sin?

AGAIN: remove sin and nothing but sin. Nothing else. Is that so hard to comprehend?

OK. Then we have prove that 'no sin' and 'free will' is an easy to solve task.

Oh, so Satan propagates sin? Here's my suggestion: remove Satan. One problem regarding sin solved.

And you base that assumption on what fact? Also, I cannot see the relevance to 'make sin go away' either.

'fallen world' - what does that mean anyway? This is a vague phrase, and makes no specific point at all. And, also, that whole sentence is not true. We have pain and suffering because god created it. If god created everything, he also created cause for pain and suffering, and thus pain and suffering. He is also not taking it away, thus knowingly putting us through pain and suffering, thus he is acting immoral. Ain't that a sin?

I cannot see that option in the phrase "every human is a sinner". Focus on the word "is".

But yet you fight these theories as if there was no tomorrow. You orientate your life after something you don't understand, without even asking questions for further understanding.

Oh, and so has a unborn or newborn baby? Again, where is the "option" to sin or not in that statement.

I sense immorality.

Again, since everybody sins, everybody must pay the penalty. Why that whole "god gave us the option to sin" gibberish then. God made us sinners, that would be correct.

Nobody said make sin legal.

Without sin, no forgiveness of sin is needed. Simple logic.

Hey, why bother me with something that bothers god? If he dislikes sin so much, he should do something against it, not I. Also, why should I deal with the 'sins' of everybody else? It still makes no sense to me.
Starting from the top...

The Bible doesn't deal with hypothetical situations like "What if Jesus was black?" or "Could God have his cake AND eat it too?" Which is basically the gist of what you're asking because the Bible has a point.

You cannot definitively say that the Bible is metaphoric. You were not present when it was written. Now, you can say you THINK it is metaphorical, but as you're trying to disprove, the burden of proof lies with you.

Questions can irritate. For example, every day I am asked several questions regarding whether I would like to increase the size of a certain organ. Your questions aren't quite that annoying, but they're up there.

Sin is what displeases God. That's pretty much the heart of it. That was my point. If God removed Sin from existence, we would have no choice but to do as God wanted, as there would be no alternative.

AGAIN: Without sin, we are forced to obey God, as disobeying God is sinful. Do you get it? Geez, maybe if I converted this to Binary or something?

Satan and Sin are not linked together that closely. Satan is the first sinner, but if he ceased to be, sin would still exist.

The relevance was that the Forty Day Fast in the Desert was where Satan tempted Jesus. Your question regarding the matter proves my point.

Fallen World. Well, here's Fallen... fall·en /ˈfɔlən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[faw-luhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
1. pp. of fall.
2. having dropped or come down from a higher place, from an upright position, or from a higher level, degree, amount, quality, value, number, etc.
3. on the ground; prostrate; down flat: Exhausted, the racers lay fallen by the road.
4. degraded or immoral.
5. (of a woman) having lost her chastity.
6. overthrown, destroyed, or conquered: a fallen city.
7. dead: fallen troops.

And here's /wɜrld/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wurld] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
1. the earth or globe, considered as a planet.
2. (often initial capital letter) a particular division of the earth: the Western world.
3. the earth or a part of it, with its inhabitants, affairs, etc., during a particular period: the ancient world.
4. humankind; the human race; humanity: The world must eliminate war and poverty.
5. the public generally: The whole world knows it.
6. the class of persons devoted to the affairs, interests, or pursuits of this life: The world worships success.
7. a particular class of people, with common interests, aims, etc.: the fashionable world.
8. any sphere, realm, or domain, with all pertaining to it: a child's world; the world of dreams; the insect world.
9. everything that exists; the universe; the macrocosm.
10. any complex whole conceived as resembling the universe: the world of the microcosm.
11. one of the three general groupings of physical nature: animal world; mineral world; vegetable world.


See how annoying it is when I deliberately reinterpret what you try to say?

We have pain because God created it. Correct. You see, pain is a very important part of the human mind. It shows us that such a thing is dangerous. It's why we don't jam our hands into fires, electrical sockets, glass shards, knives, and potent acids. Welcome to elementary biology.

God gave our forebears that option. Now, I guess I'll take care of your point that you should get away with your sin because Adam did it first. I like to think of that as the "Toddler Defense." AKA "He did it first" defense. Johnny Cochran would have loved it. God is merciful and just, but he is also, for lack of a better world, angry and vengeful. If we ask for his forgiveness, he will forgive our sins and cleanse our souls, but for each of us that sins, that stain remains until we ask forgiveness for it. But if we don't ask for it, if we don't WANT his forgiveness, God will understand that we have no desire for him and cast us into the outer darkness, where we can be with the one we love the most for eternity. Ourselves.

It's not complex. Casting down our sin and accepting Jesus into our hearts is not easy, but it's more than possible. God doesn't ask much of us to gain his forgiveness. Ever hear the story of the thief on the cross? He was vile enough to warrant crucifixion even by his own standard and when he asked forgiveness, Jesus told him he would be with him in Paradise that day. God doesn't ask us to sacrifice our hands for him or become hermits in the mountains, he simply asks us to let go of our sin and accept him into our hearts. If we sincerely want it, it's ours.

Think about that. All he asks us to do is let go of our burden and we'll be saved by him. He's not asking us to give up something that should be near and dear to us. He doesn't ask you to sacrifice your firstborn child or make some other great sacrifice, he asks you to give up something that brings nothing but bad. Consider that.
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