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Old 10-26-2007, 10:59 AM   #138
Ray Jones
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I swear that post # 122 from tk was not there after I posted mine (now # 123).

Originally Posted by tk102
"Striking sin out of the universe" -- no need to be mysterious about it. Aren't you just saying, why doesn't God eliminate the whole reward/punishment system?
Nööö. Removing sin would render punishment/reward because of sin/no sin useless, true, but I would not mind keeping it. It's like one of those crappy old PCs catching dust in the basement.

God doesn't need magic to change the laws of the universe to remove sin -- he could just change his mind and say it's all good. Right?
But it's not the same to say it's all good. Bad example: removing sin means murder would not happen, saying it's all good would mean killing someone is OK.

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The argument is predicated on the assumption that God exists (which I noted in my initial response).
Err, yes, yes, else I would not need to talk about god removing sin.

If God does not, then there is no such thing as 'sin'.
Oh, I think if god does not exist there still would be something like sin. Most probably it'd be called 'immoral act'.

edit--I see where you were going now.
OK, let's have a look. =)

If you strike out sin by striking out the ability to reject God, you've just made it mandatory to accept God.
Nope. I don't want to strike out sin by striking out the ability to reject god. I said, nothing can be a sin, when there is no such thing as sin. However, as a result, without sin humans could, but would not reject god. I don't think that means they have to accept him either.

That eliminates free will and the choice to love God or not.
As I see it, there are three options: (1) acknowledge god (positive relationship with god), (2) deny god (negative relationship with god), (3) no qualified statement regarding god (no relationship with god). If you remove sin from the equation, you still have two options left, and thus free choice to have a relationship with god remains.

Originally Posted by tk102
Having a personality seems to me to imply he is limited.
How? I cannot see this.

You can say "he is like this but not like that". It sounds anthropomorphic to me. It could be necessary for him to take on a personality to interface with us finite beings.
Hm. But god doesn't interface with us? Also, maybe this 'personality' is something humans project onto god, so they have something to grasp about god.

I won't press it further because I know this is our core belief difference (personal vs. impersonal).
Oh, that is simple. If god is alone, she has no personality, if god has other god beings with her, she has personality. Either way, she's an eye catcher. ^^

The upshot would be the same as what Ray suggested earlier.
Uuh, "let's change numbers"???

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