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Old 10-31-2007, 02:20 PM   #63
Jediphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Much of TSL was made by him. It was also stabbed in the skull and lobotomized by him and Obsidian. They had a time frame to work in, they failed to work in that time frame, and the story ended up being butchered up and put together poorly into an overall disappointing game with AMAZING potential.
Sure.... if you completely forget that LA cut two months from that schedule...

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Avellone wrote Torment. Yeah, thats great and all but that does not put him in a good place for writing a KOTOR sequel. Why? Because KOTOR is an action/story driven game with dialog at the wheel. Normally that would be perfect for him, but then you have to look at Torment. The game has hours, and hours, and hours, and HOURS, AND HOURS of text to explain the story, characters, etc. He is what I like to call a book writer... not a game story writer. A book writer has near unlimited space to write out the story he is set to make, so he can spend all the time he wants and all the paper he wants explaining what is going on. Then there are the game writers, who have limited time and space to put story in while a clock counts down over them to release. They are required to take the story, shrink it down, and still make it work fantastically. Avellone and Obsidian could not take that apparently, and that is why it turned into the mess that mods are still trying to pick up to this day.
In that case, here's to hoping that NO "action/stroy driven game" will EVER be written again... Much as I like KotOR (the original), it's highly derivative of the original movie trilogy, whereas TSL at least tried to be original. YMMV.

And frankly, I don't understand how anybody can honestly criticize the guy who did such classic CRPGs as Fallout 2 and Torment. If that's what constitutes "not game story writing", then please - let us have all the "not game story writing" that we can...

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
I am not saying that Avellone is a bad writer, or that he makes terrible games. He makes amazing stories, but he and the other writers at Obsidian seemed to think they had unlimited time working on this story as the timer ticked second by second. I bet if Avellone still could, he would be writing dialog and story for TSL and KOTOR to this very day... the gaming industry does not work like that. He and the other writers were required to fit the story into a space in a limited amount of time under pressure. He failed to do so, and failed to tell the story he wanted, resulting in gapping plot holes and unanswered questions. And they didn't even do a good job of it! They still left the HK factory dialog in the game, they put incomplete planets into the game that were poorly put together, and the ended the game on Malachor in what can only be described as cluster-f*** of nothingness.
Check your facts - LA cut two months from that schedule. Given that the production time was a year, I would humbly assume that just might be of relevance.

Besides, you're wrong - that Obsidian could write what TSL became in less than a year is a small miracle. There are companies out there who would kill to "fail" the way you suggest Obsidian did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Yes... its parent. The first Knights Of The Old Republic. You know, I notice a lot of you screaming about now that Oblivion and Avellone are out... that Kotor can no longer be Kotor. I'm sorry, but what parallel dimension do you live in where TSL came first and the original second? Kotor is LA and Bioware's child that hit the market and spawned a cult following, got amazing reviews, and has been labeled by many as one of the better RPGs of our time.
[insert sigh here] Sure... Of course Bioware can do K3. Who says they can't? The problem is that we know they won't, because they have repeatedly said that they will not and are not working on K3. What parallel dimension do you live in, where they have not said so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
And why did Kotor 1 do so great? Because of Bioware. You can yell at me all you want, but the numbers do not lie.
Sure they can. Statistics lie every day.

But you're right, of course - none of KotOR's success has ANYTHING to do with a rich background established by the comic books that the game was named after... perish the thought!

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Kotor 1 did a LOT better than TSL... because TSL is a poorly written mess.
Totally subjective. KotOR is better IMPLEMENTED (because Bioware, unlike Obsidian, were actually allowed to finish the game), but TSL had the better plot IMHO.

Now, you have a right to your opinion, but to state that TSL is poorly written as a matter of fact is just untrue, because it comes down to personal taste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Kotor came along and rocked a lot of people, some in a good way some in a bad. But it got great numbers because it was done right. It had plot holes, it had unanswered questions, and it made you wonder what happened next. How is that different from TSL? It is different because Bioware did it right. They used their time and resources to put together a near full story and left what was left over for questions and fan opinion, seeing as Kotor is truly seen through the eyes of the player. It left it open for fan fiction, for wonder and imagination. TSL left many at the end wondering "Is that all?", some happy about it but as far as I can tell many others confused and irritated that so much potential was wasted by a group of people that shouldn't have done the sequel in the first place.
1. TSL isn't left open for fan fiction?!?

2. TSL, unlike KotOR, was intentionally written for the purpose of a subsequent sequel. It's open-ended by design, not by omission or neglect. So your position is founded on a completely flawed assumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
EA and LA are probably going to hit each other a few times, yes. But EA now owns a lot of the video game market, and is much larger than LA. If both of them know what is good for them, EA will realize that there is untapped potential that Bioware and LA can still do for a nice profit, and LA will realize that the world does not revolve around them... same goes for EA.
LA will realise the world does not revolve around them? Sure... If they can see the sky for all the flying pigs...

And Satan just called - Hell DID freeze over!

Seriously, there is no way I can imagine that this agreement between LA and Bioware came about AFTER Bioware was bought by EA. I can ONLY imagine it if the deal was struck (and signed) before EA bought Bioware and then kept secret. Now, you're not going to hear either side admit to this - at least for a long time - because it will benefit neither. But no matter how you look at it, this deal will now mean that LA's deal with Bioware will make money for EA, which means it cuts into LA's profits. And there is no way LA is okay with that IMHO, because no matter how well the game(s) do(es), LA will always be thinking, "gee, we could have made even more money," because that's what business is like. It's not personal, it's just business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Now, while you sit there freezing, try and consider that the industry is not as predictable as we all think it is, and that our opinion is just that: opinion.
We finally agree on something...

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
I think I have made my reasons clear on why I do not think LA and Obsidian play nice together. LA and Bioware made something that was fantastic, then LA and Bioware walked away and LA found Obsidian, who made... something. For good or bad, they made something and apparently LA realized that Bioware did a better job taking care of its child than Obsidian did. If I were in their place, I would have run back to Bioware as well. They have a long history of great storytelling, and LA has a long history of good ideas and ownership rights... but terrible storytelling. LA tested the waters, Avellone and Obsidian failed, so LA said bye bye. Simple as that.
You know, I tend to agree with that... Because the only alternative for LA is to acknowledge that they butchered TSL themselves, and so that it could happen with any game where they pushed the deadline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Prove to me 100% that KOTOR III is going to be made by them or that the KOTOR MMO is being made. You all seem so sure that this is going to happen, but you base this all under rumors and word of mouth. Its like watching a cult standing in a field waiting for the Aliens to come take them home. Will the Aliens ever come? Who the hell knows. Yes, there is evidence to show that a Star Wars game is about to be birthed in the coming time. Do we know that it is going to be KOTOR or a KOTOR MMO? No, we do not and if you disagree put all your 100% proven and authenticated facts in front of me right now to prove me otherwise.
Sophistry. If there was proof, discussion and speculation would be moot and so not take place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Am I trying to call you all stupid? No. What I am saying is to not get your hopes up. When that MMO is announced, half of you will be screaming in agony and the other in glee. It is going to be either KOTOR or a vast amount of other possible games. Because of this completely overdone hype that you all have put yourselves in... well, you have destined yourselves to be disappointed no matter what. You go to a movie expecting perfection you will be sorely disappointed every time. You get a game expecting 10/10 completely, then you will always be able to find something wrong with it.
Au contraire. If it now turns out not to be KotOR in any way, then I'll actually be overjoyed. I'm "screaming in agony" exactly because I'm not getting my hopes up but preparing for the worst. To quote Garak, "I alway hope for the best. Experience - unfortunately - has taught me to expect the worst."

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Do I care if an MMO or Kotor III ever get made? No, I could honestly care less. Why? Because I loved Kotor. Because, despite its shortcomings, I loved TSL. They were both great games, and both ended in mystery. A lot of you seem soooooooooooo sure that an MMO or SPRPG will wrap the story up nicely. You have just set yourself up to be disappointed. Even if a Kotor game is made, the main char will most likely be someone new on a new journey to discover what has happened to Exile and Revan. Why? Because this story has no happy ending or bad ending. Revan and Exile are your characters. They are you, and your opinions and actions reflected into the game. Gender, Light and Dark Side, companions... do you really think they can bring Revan or Exile back, or finish up the story without p***ing off a lot of people? Please, explain to me a way to finish this story up and I will apologize for everything I have said.
I think so, and I have long since explained why and how. But it does depend on your perspective, of course. If you think that Revan and/or exile are gods than will defeat any enemy and overcome any obstacle ever, then you'll naturally be disappointed in any event, because that is never true of ANY character in ANY plot. If TSL made any mistake, then it was in how it failed to deflate the exaggerated view some people have of Revan and even adding to it IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
On the contrary, Bioware seems set on continuing to say that they are not making Kotor III. Maybe they are lying, maybe they are not. They have an MMO in the works, and even if it is Kotor I have my doubts about how close it will be to the Revan/Exile stories. It could be set in the Mandalorian wars, could be set in the newly birthed Jedi Order, could be set years and years into the future. Revan and Exile could just be passing comments from characters, small topics of a time long gone. I just think so many of you are on a Kotor high right now that you don't realize that in a single news article all your hopes and dreams for this series could grow or die completely.
Being on a "KotOR high" seems unlikely given how much time has passed since the last installment. People are not on a high - they're just annoyed that they've been waiting for years and there STILL is no KotOR3 on the horizon or even news of it. If LA had said that KotOR games were dead, then it would be easier, because then we could at least mourn their demise and reminisce about the games and how great they were. As it is we're all in Limbo and stuck there...


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Last edited by Jediphile; 10-31-2007 at 03:40 PM.
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