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Old 11-06-2007, 06:39 PM   #200
Jediphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Why not now? The franchise is still strong and in no way will anyone call it a desperate measure.
Not a desperate measure, but probably an pretty obvious attempt to turn a popular SPRPG into a MMORPG so that they can really cash in. I find that to be a pretty distasteful attempt to milk the fanbase of every penny. That's a personal opinion, sure. But...

1. I'm allowed to have a personal opinion, even if I'm alone with it.

2. I'm allowed to state my personal opinion, even if I'm alone with it.

3. If you look around, you'll see people on these boards who have already said that they refuse to pay the monthly fee, while I actually have not, though that should not to be taken as consent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Well, sure it has a racist overtone, but at the time I could find nothing better. However, it doesn't make it less of a good example. Why? I'll tell you why.

You based your entire argumentation on one thing: alienation of fanbase. You cited Enterprise as an example. Yet, there has been no proof of this. Outside of the first 2 pages of this thread, reaction has been more temperate and moderate. It is expected. Had this been an official announcement of K3 being made by Bioware, you'd have people up in arms denouncing how it's a bad news and that LA should have given the job to Obsidian.
Since the game has not been released or even details of it, then sure there is no proof. However, if I or anyone else still see the franchise about to take a turn that we don't like, then surely it is permissible to say so and argue why. If I see a plate on my table being so close to the edge that I fear it might fall and shatter, I don't just shrug it off with an attitude of "hey, there is no proof it'll fall, so who care?" No, I'll actually go and make certain it won't happen. Now, I can't do that in this case, obviously, but I can say that it's what I'm seeing, and I don't see anything wrong with doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
This is also why I thought you didn't read the entire thread properly; it seemed like your arguments ignore the more moderate points of view that came after the initial knee-jerk reaction.
So because some people don't see it the way I do, I shouldn't argue my position? That's akin to saying that if I say that 2+2=4, then I should stop doing so if only enough people say differently. That people disagree with me doesn't matter. Everyone could agree or disagree with me and it would still say nothing about whether I turn out to be right or not. It is simply a non-factor. Sure I have read what people have said. But since I apparently don't seem to agree with the majority of them, it stands to reason that I have not been swayed by their arguments, at least not yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Your argumentation of alienation is then based on what? Your opinion, which you have stated quite clearly, as well as those of a few other people who think like you. A KotOR MMORPG would alienate you and some others. Not for a second can you even remotely speak of alienating the fanbase, at this point in time.

You can claim whatever you want to claim, your argumentation does not lie: it is fully based on your personal opinion and not on a larger view of the KotOR community.
Yes...

Well, since it didn't work last time...

DISCLAIMER:

1. I am not nor do I claim to be in any way a representive of the KotOR net community or any other. While some people might agree with me, I do know know who or how numerous they are, nor will I make attempts to find out.

2. I have no and nor do claim to have any more knowledge beyond that which any other poster on this or any other public forum would reasonably have access to. I have no particular insights into KotOR or any other Star Wars related subject, and my conclusions and conjecture is entirely my own.

3. I do not claim in any way to be more intelligent than anyone else posting on this or any other public forum. If I appear to be, then that shall be the conclusion of the reader alone. If my arguments appear to be senseless and inane, that too shall be the conclusion of the reader and not mine.

4. My opinion does not, nor do I claim that it should, have more weight than anyone else's, nor matter in any way to anyone on this forum, another forum, or at Lucasarts or any other company beyond what what value such a party may themselves choose to apply to anything I say. In that case, I deny any association with such value myself.

5. I do not claim to be right about any opinion or speculation that I voice, nor do I claim that I'm in any way perfect to any degree where I might be considered above making mistakes.

6. Any speculation or conjecture I make is - to my knowledge - entirely my own, unless stated otherwise. In keeping with point 2 above (q.v.), any speculation on my part on what will or will not be the consequence of any decision or action on the part of Lucasarts or anyone else is entirely based on personal experience and suppositions on my part alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
The question was approximately like this:

Which of these rumors would you want to be true?

-3 options that don't matter
-Bioware MMO = KotOR 33%
-GTA IV sporting a 16 player MP mode 35%

In no way is this truly significant, but it means that there's a market and that some people are interested in it. True, the readers of Gamespot.com aren't the entire world, but again, this poll still has some meaning. I think you're intelligent enough to know that I used the word "interest" in a positive manner.
Gee, thanks...

Given those choices it seems fairly obvious to me that most, if not all, KotOR-fan would pick that. Heck, as someone pointed out here a while ago (or was it on the Obsidian board...), just put Revan as an option in any poll, and people will choose him/her, even if he/she has absolutely no bearing on the poll.

Besides, the obvious problem with a poll like that is that (at least according to the choices you've presented) it does not seem to include anyone who want none of the options or who just don't care. I know that I have to be attracted to an option in a net-poll before I click anything. So if, say, 5000 people passed by one day, but a hundred wanted KotOR MMO and a little more wanted GTA4 with 16 players, then it looks spectacular, because such a high percentage wants this or that on a much-visited site, when actually the vast majority simply either hated all the options or just didn't care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Some things about this part...

First, if this was an announcement that Petroglyph was having a partnership with LA for the development of some interactive experience based on the KotOR universe, nobody would give a damn.
Wrong. Somebody would. Because somebody always does. And whoever that person is and if he was the only person in the entire world that gave a damn, that's still one more person than "nobody".

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Yet, the two games would be totally different. I hardly think an RTS could convey this RPG character development and depth.
Which is the point I have been trying to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Second, the first element I highlighted. This is again why people tell you not to use argumentation based on your own personal opinion. I'm sorry if you don't like this, but it's true. You're saying, for a KotOR game to be successful, it would have to be the way you want it to be. If I reformulate it in a way that's not attackable:

"For me to enjoy a KotOR game, it would need to focus on the plot and character development, in order to generate an emotional attachment."

No talk about success or anything, only a pure personal opinion, no strings attached and nobody can contradict you.
You know, I should return the compliment and credit you with being intelligent enough to understand what I was getting at. I mentioned KotOR, yes, but only in relation to it being an SPRPG. I then argued some notable differences that are important to SPRPGs, and not merely to KotOR. But they are significant to KotOR because both games have been SPRPGs, and so it speaks to the fanbase as well. There are notable differences between SPRGPs, RTS games, and even MMORGPs that have to do with how much the games depend on plot and character-depth, since they essential to SPRGPs, but not particularly to the other games in my experience. I don't understand why you cannot bring yourself to at least consider and comment on this, when you are clearly able to read and respond to it and expect me to consider your position.

And while my own intellect may be rather limited, it is still keen enough to note that you now interpret what I'm saying, then rephrase it, then restate it with your own words that you then put in my mouth, before you finally argue against those very words. From what I know, this generally known as misrepresentation.

I suppose I'll have to repeat myself...

DISCLAIMER:

1. I am not nor do I claim to be in any way a representive of the KotOR net community or any other. While some people might agree with me, I do know know who or how numerous they are, nor will I make attempts to find out.

2. I have no and nor do claim to have any more knowledge beyond that which any other poster on this or any other public forum would reasonably have access to. I have no particular insights into KotOR or any other Star Wars related subject, and my conclusions and conjecture is entirely my own.

3. I do not claim in any way to be more intelligent than anyone else posting on this or any other public forum. If I appear to be, then that shall be the conclusion of the reader alone. If my arguments appear to be senseless and inane, that too shall be the conclusion of the reader and not mine.

4. My opinion does not, nor do I claim that it should, have more weight than anyone else's, nor matter in any way to anyone on this forum, another forum, or at Lucasarts or any other company beyond what what value such a party may themselves choose to apply to anything I say. In that case, I deny any association with such value myself.

5. I do not claim to be right about any opinion or speculation that I voice, nor do I claim that I'm in any way perfect to any degree where I might be considered above making mistakes.

6. Any speculation or conjecture I make is - to my knowledge - entirely my own, unless stated otherwise. In keeping with point 2 above (q.v.), any speculation on my part on what will or will not be the consequence of any decision or action on the part of Lucasarts or anyone else is entirely based on personal experience and suppositions on my part alone.

Now that I have - for the third time - stated that I do not claim to have particular insights or argue any other position then my own, can we discuss the topic instead of me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Finally, the last segment highlighted, is totally unrepresentative of anything. I will discard it easily.
I should do that myself more often...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
1. The main Warcraft characters already have a lot of backstory and not a lot of future. Sure, some fans can develop more, but I the current conjuncture in the Warcraft universe, with a greater focus on these lower class adventurers instead of main character demigods, due to World of Warcraft, it is entirely possible that writers simply don't give a rat's ass about them anyone and want to focus on their own stories in the world of Azeroth.
Of course, I base this on a conjunction of events and not on an absolute. I dare assume that people prefer to write new stories and few will focus on existing canon.
Right. So you do see a notable difference between that and KotOR, I take it? TSL, for example, has a completely open ending, meaning that the exile and likely Revan have lots of future in the plot, at least IMHO, which I cannot and do not claim to be anyone's but mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
It is entirely possible that, had WC given more importance to character development, fanfiction would focus more strongly on maun characters. We'll never know.

2. Why should fanfiction even matter? How many fans of the entire KotOR community (remember, 1.3 million copies sold for the XBox) actually bother to write fanfiction? Too few to be of any factor.
You know, for someone who just argued that fan reaction to this topic being more temperate and moderate than mine has relevance, this seems like an odd argument, given that Lucasforums has a whole section devoted exclusively to KotOR-based fanfiction: http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=640 - if the "more temperate and moderate" reactions to this topic have significance, then why don't the people who wrote all that fanfiction suddenly not matter in the equation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
1. Track record has little bearing. Hey, I admit, I was among those who were panicking about EA buying Bioware and Pandemic. However, it seems that everything is turning out fine for them. Hard to base any reasoning on pure track record. Companies are run by people and people can change...or you change the person at the head of the company. Anyway...
Several things here...

For someone who just called me on having no basis for arguing that the MMORPG would alienate the fanbase, this seems like a very odd thing to say, somehow. I mean, what proof - any proof - do you have that everything seems to be turning out fine for them?!? None. At all. We know nothing about what this will mean at the moment, because we have yet to see the fallout. So while I have no proof - and should apparently refrain from speculating on the basis of what I consider related situations of the past - and so should not state entirely personal opinions on the matter, it is okay for you to make a conclusion like this on no basis at all? What, a double standard is twice as good as a standard or what?

The other thing to mention here is the fairly obvious "those who refuse the learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it"-analogy. LA does not have a good track record. Suggesting that it doesn't matter because people change is strange argument to me. The phrase "fool me one, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" is begging to be spoken here. Or are you saying that if I cheated you twice, then you would be fine to give me the benefit of the doubt no problem a third time because, hey, people change? Somehow I doubt that... And LA does not have the best reputation in the business, when it comes to this sort of thing. Don't take my word for it, though - http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
2. Assuming it comes out at the same time. Let's assume the MMORPG, not based on K3, comes out in 2009. What stops K3 SPRPG to be released in 2011 or 2012? Nothing at all. In that case, no oversaturation of anything.
I actually agree completely with this, but it is also at the heart of the problem. If this is the timetable we're looking at for K3, then things look grim to me indeed, since it means the only new KotOR I can look forward to in the next four to five years are the comic books...

I like the comic books, but I'd like the game too, and a MMORPG does not sound like what I would consider "true" KotOR.

And those four years is from now, which is then at least six years after TSL to see how the open ending of TSL finally turns out. Sheesh, that's twice as long as the wait from "Empire" to "Jedi", which was more than long enough... That alone is reason enough for me to not want a MMORPG in the way of KotOR3, without even going into the question of whether it will alienate the fanbase or fit with the storytelling-genre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
3. I'm seriously having a hard time figuring out what you're trying to say. An MMMORPG would try to lure many existing fans as well as other non-fans. I don't know how this is even a problem. I think WoW also tried to lure many WC fans. That's how things are done.
I'm not sure what you're talking about in regards to competitors and KotOR 3.
I'm speculating that a KotOR MMORPG can go two ways. If it succeeds, then LA cashes in and keeps the game going. In LA's eyes, this will then constantly postpone any "need" for a KotOR3 because "hey, the Kotorians are still playing and paying for the MMO, so they must be happy - they don't need KotOR3 yet", and so KotOR3 is growing more and more distant on the horizon. But if the game tanks, then it might be even worse, because LA might then be thinking, "Gee, nobody likes KotOR anymore... Well, we'll better not make any more games, then, since they don't sell, and the money would then be wasted on development." This latter point seems to me likely on the basis of LA not being particularly good at admitting to the strategic blunders they have made along the way. TSL is a prime example. They pushed the deadline and forced Obsidian to rush it. It sold, but the criticism was massive. That LA then nixed a content-patch Obsidian wanted to do and closed the possibility for one suggested to me that LA would rather let the game die than admit any wrongdoing on their own part. Hence we know have Team Gizka and Team Exile.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Last edited by Jediphile; 11-06-2007 at 06:57 PM.
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