View Single Post
Old 04-24-2008, 07:51 PM   #66
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
I'm not sure if this statement is quantifiable; I mean lets assume you randomly meet a man called Fred on the street; and Fred claims he used to have no legs but God healed him, what are you going to say?
Does Frank have pictures from when we was legless? Does Frank have medical records that would contain evidence of a double-amputation procedure? Financial records showing the purchase of a wheel chair, etc? Does Frank have any friends or family members we could simply ask?

It's not as though there aren't ways to verify Frank's claims. And even if, for some reason we couldn't for Frank, then Fred, Francis, or Fredo might surely have something we could use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
Assuming if God where to heal him properly, everything would be back as it had been; so unless you knew Fred for a long duration, there would be no way to check the varacity of his claims.
You're either trying too hard or not hard enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
I did HEAR the following story. (I am unsure as to its truth, as I don't know those involved, however it makes an interesting anecdote).

Here is the brief version; there was a que in a supermarket, with a recent convert to Christianity; he asked if he could pray for a partially blind person behind him in the que. The said partially blind person had lost an eye; the story goes that there and then the blind person grew a new eye having been prayed for. As said I don't know if its true but had heard it from a friend; my jury is out.
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
Is God at fault or are we?
Please don't side-step the question. If god is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, why doesn't he solve the hunger crisis?
(hint: possible answers include: he's not omnibenevolent, he isn't omnipotent, or he doesn't exist).

Anways; here is one of my facebook notes as an offering; I think that there is enough resources in the world, for everyone to be well fed and educated; unfortunatly the rich steal from the poor and there aren't enough Robin Hoods....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
First question, is anyone innocent?
Babies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
As for as I understand the commandments they were only for Jews,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 5:17-19
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus thinks they are for everyone. *shrugs*

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
the people who were killed in the land are recorded in the Bible as sacrificing their Children to their Gods;
And god did what with his only son?

PS: Love the fact that his son had to die (as a sacrifice to himself) so that he could forgive his creation for doing what he allowed them to do in the first place. Where do I sign up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
so don't think they were a nice bunch.
Christians shouldn't throw stones in glass houses

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
Please show me places in the NIV where there is anti-scientific nonsense.
How about Genesis 1 and 2 for starters

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
Please do not use beliefs of fundementalists to portray all Christians as thinking the same...the fact that Genesis is written in the style of a Hebrew poem seems to be conveniantly forgotten by many people. It is at least in my interpretation not meant to be taken literally.
Emphasis added

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
I haven't checked the verses used, but the wider context is needed, and this reply is already getting very long!

Why do you think he is? As I understand it the kind of Slavery in the old testament required the master to treat the slaves well. In the new testamanet, Paul orders that slaves should be treated well. And indeed asks for Philemon to free Onesimus from slavery.

Slavery is and was barbaric, but a fact of life still today; are you really free or are you a slave to your work or country? The Bible as far as I understand it demands slaves to be treated well...
Yes, according to Exodus hebrew men sold into slavery had to be freed after 6 years and hebrew women could not be worked like the men, however:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus 21:20-21
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
Beat your slaves with rod but don't kill them or you'll be punished. If they live for a couple more days then die, then don't sweat it; they were your property anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke 12:45-48
But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Just in case you wanted to argue that Jesus didn't advocate slavery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
Ahh, the age old question... Suggested reading if anyone is up for it; the Book of Job; I can return to this question if anyone wishes, there is not an easy answer to it, but I do have Peter Vardy's excellent book 'The Thinkers Guide to Evil' which has a whole chapter devoted to this question. Interesting reading, I would reccomend the book
And the answer is...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
Please indicate to me from the said miracles any evidence that should have stayed behind?
Irrelevant point. Our expectations regarding evidence has absolutely no bearing on the fact that there isn't any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
I have a friend in the middle east (due to the sensitive nature cannot post here, some of you I will trust with the details (Achilles)... Basically I have a friend who was a Muslim, but became a Christian because of a dream he had about Jesus. Please do not think this was an easy decision on his part; he was thrown out of his family and persecuted by the state. But he would say he has seen Jesus.
In a dream. I've seen a lot of famous people in my dreams. Doesn't mean I've actually ever met any of them. Similarly, when I was a kid, a lot of scary monsters appeared to me in my dreams. Is this evidence of their existence as well? Why or why not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
The above in literal form is a catholic thing. I eat bread and wine in rememberance of what Jesus did for me. Much the same as we may have a 1 minutes silence to commemorate what those who died in the WW2 had done for us.
This doesn't answer the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
Same reason many Christians don't behave like Jesus; 'Love your neighbour' and 'Turn the other cheek' maybe said alot but when are they done?
This doesn't answer the question

Thanks for your response, J7!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexrdias
I'm in a hurry now but when I'll have time I will answer your questions.
Sounds good. I look forward to your response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexrdias
I'm a christian and I believe on evolution too(this is just for some people that think that religion and science can't be together)and for what I've read, you look against this religion.
I'm against irrational thinking. If there was evidence for religion, I would be very much for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexrdias
However, I've found some inconsistencies on your questions: If you don't believe in God why you ask this type of questions?
My belief or non-belief has nothing to do with it. This is akin to saying that we can only discuss your favorite sports team if I like that sports team too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexrdias
(some here give you answers but you just "refuse" them)
I'm assuming you mean "refute" them? FWIW, I don't think anyone here has answered any of these questions. Several people have offered responses, but none of those responses were answers to the questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexrdias
And why do you say that God demand the death of many innocent people in the Bible?
Because in the bible he advocates and/or demands the murder of men, women, and children. Not just onesy-twosy stuff, but entire towns, cities, and nations. Perhaps is it you that clearly hasn't read the bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexrdias
It's clear that you hadn't read the bible, or you just read what it's necessary to criticize.
I've read the bible, the book of mormon, parts of the qu'ran, and well as dozens of books on religion, mythology, and philosophy. I hope that addresses your concerns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexrdias
Just an advice: If you read the entire Bible (don't take it all literally, some things are methafores among other things) you'll find the answers for those questions and maybe learn something more.
Do you have some sort of crib sheet that will help me distinguish which parts are figurative and which are literal? If you do, would you mind telling me how you've verified it's reliability? In other words, how do you *know* that the parts you've arbitrarily decided were figurative weren't supposed to be taken literally (like the part about killing disobedient children in the middle of street with rocks while all your neighbors watch)?

Last edited by Achilles; 04-24-2008 at 08:07 PM. Reason: response for alexrdias
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,