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Old 06-12-2008, 05:15 PM   #61
Achilles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikinor View Post
I don't want to get on your bad side or anything, but it appears to me that you simply wrote off some of the things I said by calling them contradictory. I will admit that I could have worded them better. I will do that now.
Let's have a look:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikinor View Post
Just that I don't find it that wrong to convert those who have NO BELEIF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikinor View Post
Them not beleiving in a God or gods is their beleif right there.
If it is wrong to try to change someone's belief and if the position that there is no god is a belief (a premise I strongly disagree with), then trying to convert someone that believes that there is no god contradicts your first position that trying to convert someone that already has a belief is wrong. I hope that helps to clarify.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikinor View Post
Religion is in it's own sense a form of education. It is certainly biased and is quite possibly wrong. I would not see the harm in educating someone who has no knowledge of the subject as long as you educate them beyond what you beleive.
So when you attempt to convert non-christians you make sure to include equal time for mormonism, scientology, satan worship, each of the pagan pantheons, ancestor worship, buddhism, the flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorns, fairies, druidism, etc?

Or do you spend most of your time talking about how great your religious tradition is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikinor View Post
I wouldn't say it is wrong for a Christian, Muslim or Jew to try and convert someone who has no knowledge of the issue, but they also should give the other religions and ideas a fair chance and thus allowing the person to make his or her own decision on what they beleive.
So would you say that parents that raise their children within a specific religious tradition are acting inappropriately? Considering that children are especially vulnerable because they have not yet developed the critical thinking skills necessary to adequately question what they are being told, might you say that they are being exploited?

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Originally Posted by Vikinor View Post
Of course most people probably could not educate this said person beyond what they beleive because of lack of knowledge and understanding.
Indeed.

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Originally Posted by Vikinor View Post
You are correct that the people can still vote towards their religious beleifs, but what are you trying to prove?
That people need to use reason, not superstitious wishful thinking, to make important decisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikinor View Post
Disproving a religion will stop this?
Note: no one can "disprove" religion as it cannot be tested. Therefore the question, as it is worded, is not useful.

To the spirit of the question: Yes, I absolutely believe that foregoing irrational thinking in order to adopt rational thinking will absolutey result in rational decisions. No more "garbage in, garbage out", as it were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikinor View Post
No, that won't work. They just need to be educated of the others perspectives and keep open minds. My mother is a hardcore devout Catholic woman. I really dislike this. I have gotten in numerous arguements with her about other religions and ideas. She is very conservative and is against abortion basically just because her church is.
The defense rests, Your Honor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikinor View Post
People need to be educated from all perspectives and all the different viewpoints, so that they can decide for themselves.
Indeed they do, but we also need to have a culture that just says no to BS.

The following is one of my favorite quotes from the author Sam Harris:
Quote:
The president of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
Extremely good point. Thank you for posting it, Achilles.
My pleasure. Thank you for the kudos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikinor View Post
I agree, but it wasn't contradictory to me. That's why I tried to put it in better words. He didn't argue the side, he just called it contradictory, so I tried to clear things up. I hope it makes more sense now.
My apologies. One of my many faults is that I tend to assume that if I point out an error in reasoning that the person I am conversing with will be able to see how the reasoning is wrong if I stop to point it out. Hopefully by pointing out the two conflicting statements and expanding on how they contradict one another I have helped to alleiviate any confusion.

Please feel free to ask me to slow down and try again if ever I say something that doesn't make sense. I'll do my best to explain what I'm saying.

Thanks.
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