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Old 08-20-2008, 09:06 PM   #115
Achilles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
Very well. Nevertheless, see below for what I said was "fragile evidence".
You seem to be very willing to say that they are "fragile" but at the same time unwilling to say anything substantive as to why they should be considered such. Case in point:
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Originally Posted by you
I won’t pick it apart entirely: I don’t have the time.
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Originally Posted by you
I dislike large walls of text, and also dislike spending too long a period preparing an answer which I doubt would convince many anyway.
More on this later.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
You're misinterpreting my metaphor, so here's another one: those dots are a few stars in a galaxy full of them.
I'm not missing your metaphor at all. In fact, with each revision your metaphor becomes increasingly untenable. A "galaxy" full of "stars"? How many subplots did the writers throw in here? I'm sure I could probably count a few, but your argument is that there are thousands? None of which linked in any significant way except for how we choose to see them?

Okay, let's try this. At what point in the game do any of the characters come right out and tell us specifically what the "mass shadow generator" is? Do they tell us how it was made? What it looked like? Specifics on how it worked?

I don't recall seeing any of this, yet I (and I imagine many others) somehow managed to figure it out. Same writing device, different sub-plot, yet no debate. Why not?

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
A different picture - another theory - can be drawn from entirely different stars in a different order, but that doesn't make it correct. You say "all those coincidences", but even across the entire argument I only see a few. Most points don't even pass as coincidences.
Okay. Then why are you here?

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
You're either just misunderstanding me or else being stubborn.
I didn't misunderstand you at all. You attempted to divert the discussion by pointing out that Kreia bends the truth, etc. This is a valid observation, but has absolutely nothing to do with any story not being told by her. So either your trying to change the story or you don't understand the implications of the argument that you made.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
You know you cannot prove to me that the writers clearly intended for this theory of yours to fit. So until Chris Avellone states that Kae is Kreia, I cannot accept that statement.
That's your standard of proof and you're welcome to it. I believe that I addressed people that need smoking guns in an earlier post.

[off topic] If I'm ever implicated in a major crime, I hope that you're on my jury.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
I would, were it not for the fact that "it won't work" means "you cannot convince me with such a method". That said, though I know you as a man who always sticks to his guns, I also recognise that you place a great value on the truth. Should further evidence come to light either for or against this argument, I know I can trust on you to shift your opinion and stand by it.
I'm absolutely convinced by reasonable arguments and I very much appreciate you acknowledging that even though we are currently at a disagreement over this topic.

If you do have a case, I would like to see it and if it is persuasive, then it should be accepted (not just by me, but everyone). However without having seen it, it's impossible for any of us to know what it is.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
Please don't try to antagonise me.
Achilles' Pet Peeve #73,129: People that say "I don't have time to make my argument" (but want to me to accept their argument) instead of just making the argument. My knee-jerk reaction is that said person doesn't actually have an argument and instead wants to insult my intelligence by bull****ing me. I don't think I know anyone who likes it when people try to bull**** them.

So please don't antagonize me.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
I dislike large walls of text, and also dislike spending too long a period preparing an answer which I doubt would convince many anyway. My aim with that post was to pick holes in some arguments put forward in this thread.
This is a double-standard. We should jump through countless hoops to prove our argument to you, but you shouldn't have to jump through any to convince us of yours.

But to your credit, you said that you don't want to make an argument per se, so much as pick holes in ours. Which means this isn't an dialog/exchange of ideas in good faith; It's just you being argumentative.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
As there is not much evidence for this argument, picking apart every supposition made by various posters previously across the many threads on this topic would be an excersise in futility. I'm sure you recognise the same strong adherance to a single theory in previous threads.
I have no problem with tentative adherence to supportable theories. My problem is blind adherence to poorly formed hypothesis that have no tenable supporting arguments. Luckily, that isn't the case at hand.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
Achilles, look carefully at each line of text in the game and tell me that no other lines have such ambiguous pragmatic meaning just BEGGING for a plot hook to come and attach itself.
I'm not sure what your point is.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
True, quite true. Yet an example, I feel, of how revelations should be done. Nevertheless, I know it's an opinion - and one you can disregard at your leisure.
As you say then, it's a matter of preference. Just because you don't like the way something is done doesn't mean it hasn't happened though.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
Oh, quite. I enjoyed hearing Mical's past as a female as much as I enjoyed Brianna's as a male. I also love the differences between light side and dark side playthroughs.

Yet with every sub-element of the story I can mention in the game, the beginning, middle and end could be encountered in one playthrough of the game. Very nice, very neat. Rather like the character subquests in KotOR, if you don't mind me referring to the prequel again.
I disagree that this happened. I think they all tied into the same narrative but from different perspectives. They aren't separate stories as you seem to suggest.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
But it is odd, don't you think, that this hypothetical Arren Kae story would be the only one spread across the two playthroughs?
It isn't. It just happens to be the one you're being the most critical of.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
You rest your entire argument on an assumption that the writers intended your story to exist even though not a single confirmation has been made by them or has been found hiding amongst the dialogue notes.
Again, smoking gun. Some people need them. Others don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
Sir, you cannot second-guess Chris Avellone or put words into his mouth. Until there is actual hard fact, in-universe (which it would seem you would not prefer), or out-of-universe in the form of the actual written words of the writers themselves (a simple "yes", perhaps?), this issue may never be resolved.
Again, standards of proof. You need a smoking gun. I do not.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
Many theories have existed on similarly "unshakeable" evidence which has proven to far from unshakeable. This theory is much the same. That said, I'm sure an exponent of the scientific method such as yourself would actually still recognise it as a theory and not a proven fact, yes? Otherwise we would not even be arguing this point: we would be on the same ground.
Once again, you seek to drag the thread off topic. Distraction perhaps?

The scientific method is process of making observations (i.e. gathering "facts", which go in the front in, not out the back end as you erroneously assert above), forming hypothesis to explain said observations, then testing the hypothesis via various means to see if they hold up to scrutiny.

Interestingly, this process is precisely what was used to come to this conclusion. Observations were made during game play. Hypothesis were formed. Predictions were made and tested (for instance, if Kreia were Handmaiden's mother, then we would need some other evidence pointing to her being Master Kae as well. Lo and behold, we get some. A lot if you play as a female). So if hypothesis can be tested and passes, then the resulting Theory is scientifically sound.

Now if you can find a flaw with the methodology or evidence which disproves the Theory (which is what science does; it rules out or disproves hypothesis based on evidence), then you have a case. Waving your arms around an crying about how you don't like the end result or don't believe that is says what it does is neither helpful nor persuasive.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
You're avoiding the crux of my point,
No, I'm not. You presented the work of a different writer as a valid argument against the story created by this one. Unrelated. That is neither my fault nor my doing.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
"True - but as one trained in the Force, you know that true coincidences are rare"
You seem to be making my point for me.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
So tell me then, does this statement hold true in reality?
My personal opinions about reality have very little do with the dramatic license taken in a fictional work. Hint: We don't really have lightsabers or hyperspace travel either.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
Finally, I notice you didn't deal with my statements dealing with the content of the argument itself, instead choosing to "<snip>". Should I be led to believe, then, that I am on a correct heading within these select areas of the argument?
Oh, I absolutely did. I simply dismissed them all at once instead of one by one. Here is my comment again. I hope it helps (emphasis added so that we can avoid further confusion):

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Originally Posted by me
All of these can be addressed by the point I've already made: why would the devs place all these "dots" where they did if they're not related? Lack of something better to do?
Thanks for reading.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
You were correct in your dissection of his point but in this case in general, however, the burden of proof is actually on you Achilles.
For his argument? It absolutely is not.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
As demonstrated, the burden of proof is on Bill. To rephrase the above:
<snipped example>
Except that you're using the wrong example. The burden of proof for "Bill's" claim is on Bill.

GiygasUnlimited presented a claim and then asked me to disprove it. The burden of proof for his claim is on him. It is not on me. That was the point. I hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by nine.roses View Post
I apologise if I sound patronising in doing this: I'd rather know that I've covered it from the right angle than have several pointless posts full of misunderstanding.
No, you don't sound patronizing at all. You do sound as though you're having a small measure of difficulty keeping track of all of the various arguments that are being made and what they are in relation to.

Last edited by Achilles; 08-20-2008 at 09:23 PM. Reason: Whoops, you added more :)
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