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Old 09-24-2008, 09:48 AM   #63
SD Nihil
@SD Nihil
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Originally Posted by SW01
No, it is by no means completely free, it is paid for, as I said, through the national insurance contribution in income taxation. But, as has been said elsewhere, you must take into consideration the fact that such a thing overrules the need for everyone to pay for health insurance separately. From what I understand, the contribution we make is less than is required to maintain an insurance plan.

Also, on the government being too financially strained to cope, the NHS in Britain was set up only a few years after the Second World War. The government then was not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination.
Nothing is completely fair in life. I simply believe that CHC is more more fair. You can't change what I think.

Also UHC where you said insurance isn't separate from the expenses. That doesn't make it any less of a bill. That doesn't make the amount paid any less than a CHC in my opinion.

CHC you can pay who you want to do the surgery. UHC you have less choice. And all is subject to the government's almighty decision in the end.

"Less than to maintain an insurance plan". In CHC if an insurance company fails then they fail. You shop for the most competitive and one you want. With UHC if that government is socialistic or communistic then you have to pay because the government says so. Less choice. In socialism or communism if the UHC insurance company fails I believe you'll get charged more to keep that one alive or government bail out.

Originally Posted by Joe
I've done an externship in the VA, which is a federal universal health care system for veterans. The doctors and staff consistently gave excellent care. Some of the best research and changes in standards of care in glaucoma have come out of work done with VA patients. The doctors and other staff advanced according to position in the federal system and time in grade and do very well.
Yes, but it is also in a government that is capitalistic. And people in the military don't have to seek help from the VA. They have the choice to seek Private Health Care.

Some excellent medical research is coming out of UHC systems like in the UK, France, and Canada. In some ways the research is easier to do in UHC systems because of quicker access to greater amounts of data. These countries regularly update their standards of care to incorporate new treatments and healthcare delivery systems.
With CHC we get to our patients quick too. We make advancements in medicine too. There's less to gain from making a cure in UHC because the government can decide if you should get paid for your work or if you have to steel your idea to the government.

Also, we could simply extend Medicare to everyone. That would get rid of the then-redundant Medicaid system and save states a ton of money, and it would still allow competition in the health care system. There are lots of ways to ensure everyone has universal access to healthcare.
To pay for it that will come with more taxes and cost to the people.

I don't want to hear anymore crap about how poor people are poor because they're just lazy. My mother-in-law worked her butt off all her life. She didn't have the intellectual ability or the money to go to college to get the kind of job that would have allowed her to leave poverty. She raised 9 kids, helped run a farm so you and I would have things to actually eat, and worked very hard in the jobs she did have. She worked even after getting hurt on a job so badly that her back was never the same. She didn't have the opportunities you and I have had. She didn't live in a place that had a lot of opportunities, and didn't have the money to move. She hardly had enough to pay for basic things like electricity, water, and food.
You have no right to tell me how to think or post. The only power you have is to make sure I don't break forum rules. I never said all poor people are poor and in pain because of their lack of work. Yes there are some instances where people have worked hard and just had bad luck come their way. But in the US the majority who work get rewarded.

Originally Posted by Bee Hoon
An interesting question here is whether you would offer them a job, should you be put in that situation
If I am to give another a job I have to take under consideration the pros and cons of hiring. Will it look good for my business to outweigh the cost of hiring them. Am I willing to take a hit money wise to pay for them at the expense of me. Will I gain new skills brought by the employee. Will he effect sales in a good way or bad way.

In the end it's something I'd just have to weigh. If I was in that same position of needing a job I hope that same thought process is used on me. I don't want to be a burden to the company if I can't bring to the table. Some will end up on the street because though they tried they didn't get the job in time.

It doesn't mean that once your on the stret that's now your life. You keep trying. Wish I could remember the name of the movie, but it was about this black guy with his son. His mother left because though he was selling these x ray machines he wasn't making the money.

He ended up having to go to a shelter. Living on the street. We are humane. We have shelters and places to go. But not forever. People must see there that you are choosing to try to find work. If your not they won't keep you in their doors. But if your trying they'll be compassionate.

Anyway, the guy got an interview finally even though he was in rag clothes. But he used that to his interview. Got the job. Worked hard. Oh it was investment advice he was selling in the company he got this job.

He ended up being a millionaire and having his own company. Wish I could remember the name though.

But that shows rags to riches. That shows you can have all the bad breaks and still go places. Again not always, but more times than not.

And there here in America is always shelter, soup kitins, etc. But people there have to see you are at least trying to make your own way.

A few conversations cannot hope to convey a lifetime of experience and knowledge. Until you have been through the same training and practiced for 40 years, I remain skeptical. And even if you have--I only accept your expertise as a nurse anesthetist, not as a doctor or a community medicine specialist.

It is good that your father cared about his brother, but it is irrelevant to the topic.
The more I talk to him I do. Don't dismiss my father. It isn't irrelevant. It shows those in CHC have compassion and that we are a humane system.


I am fully aware of the Hippocratic oath, and it seems that the point of my post just flew past your head. You, as a person, are not humane. Your stance on poverty is appalling, and you would rather clutch a fistful of dollar bills to your chest than to alleviate a poor person's suffering.

As Jae and many of us have repeatedly pointed out, poverty is not always a person's fault. Has it ever occurred to you that illness can drive a person into poverty? Ironic, but it does happen.
The we I was referring to is the US. And for the rest of this is your opinion.

So bloggers do not help themselves? I might have taken that as a personal slur, except that it's far too absurd. You might note that many LFers have blogs, all of whom have demonstrated far more compassion and maturity than you have.
The keyword you forgot is if. If they do not help themselves then yes I have no sympathy for them. Only pity. That's my right to believe that way.

I speak personally for the Malaysian health system, (if I remember correctly, housemen are ranked U48, medical officers U52, so on until heads of departments are ranked U64 or similar). As they ascend in rank, their pay also rises--not as much as they might get working in the private hospitals, but most of them have that inner spark to serve the people. The government also provides post-graduate opportunities at local universities.
That's your one country among others who might not have as much success. Also when something is ranked it depends on who the person did the ranking. It depends also on that person's stance on UHC.

From our American perspective we feel our CHC is better than most UHCs. That's what we think and present evidence to support that. As other countries do the same if they have a UHC. It wouldn't look good to present info that shows UHC to be not as good as CHC.

I think when you get down to things it's all a matter of what you believe. Any data can especially today can be interoperated the way one chooses.

I say to the onlookers of this thread just watching. Don't take our words for it find your own opinion. Lokk yourself. Come to your own conclusions. If you don't agree with your government's current health care system then change it by voting, making your voice known to your senators, etc.

You can do this in the US. That's what in my opinion makes us so great. You can disagree with your government without receiving persecution from our government.

Well, there is definite proof that you didn't click on them. The links I provided are articles which deal with factors leading to poverty. Nice to know that my courtesy in providing direct links was wasted effort.
Too many links like you said. You might be picking out just a few to support your opinion. The point is I'm way to busy and don't care to research that heavily.

Especially when onlookers on this thread can themselves look up the info on their owns and make up their own minds.

Who am I to tell them how to think. Besides, I feel that most of us if not all of us posting here already have our minds made up.

own is taxing those who can afford it to provide care for those who cannot, in any way comparable to stealing the food off their tables? After all, those who have problems putting food on the table probably fall out of the tax bracket or are taxed minimal amounts. Keep in mind that these are the same people whom you and SD Nihil regard as lazy bums who enjoy living in poverty.

How pleasant that you're suddenly so worried about their well-being.
Because it's taking what isn't yours. That's my money not yours. I should be able to choose which charity or who I wish to give or not give to. That is my free right as an US citizen. No government should tell me who disadvantaged I'm to give to. It's not their place.

The government and health care systems shouldn't play robin hood.

No, as I've said, it's my Doctor that determines the level of care I receive, not the government.
I said ultimately it's up to the government.

As far as sauces is concerned I can say they only looked at someone who had their own opinion. Or let's say it was Fox. That's a biased organization. I can say it about CNN. I can say these or those stats are based on that country's opinion and withholding and giving info that they want to present.

And this is not moderating to say make your own decisions and find yourself. It's just a lot is based on opinion and who is writing the facts on this and that. If I give into that supports CHC that might be viewed as just from a person or group that prefers that. O Readily is well researched. Some just say he lies or is evil.

So really it's all up to everyone's opinion.

And a slightly higher tax is a small price for the knowledge that I won't have to pay more for surgery should I be involved in a car accident, or should I need drugs if I develop a condition.
I don't think it will be slight. And I don't want the government or a UHC to tell me I must pay for someone else.

I'd much rather have universal care for all, as opposed to great care for some. Yes, it has it's flaws, but with Universal Healthcare, the Elderly, the Infirm, the Young, and both Physically and mentally disabled will all receive care, whereas with your system, they have the potential to be cast aside in favor of more affluent patients.

It's sad that a 'civilized society should charge its citizens for what should be one of their most basic rights.
Amount getting care doesn't mean all will get quality of care they need unless ultimately the government says so.

Fine her's some proof. I can deal with a headache at least today:

O Reilly is a smart guy. Forward to about 1 min and 50 sec into it.

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