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Old 12-10-2008, 08:51 PM   #270
Arcesious
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NE
Posts: 1,876
Current Game: Mass Effect
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataris View Post
So you're just trying to twist the word perfect in order to serve your purposes then? God doesn't need praise, but he does demand it.
No I'm not. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...ition&ct=title being complete of its kind and without defect or blemish; "a perfect circle"; "a perfect reproduction"; "perfect happiness"; "perfect manners"; "a ...

Complete: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...#37;3Acomplete : having every necessary or normal part or component or step; bring to a whole, with all the necessary parts or elements; perfect and complete in every respect; having all necessary qualities;

A omnipotent, omniscient God described as perfect wouldn't need Humans.

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Originally Posted by Ataris
Perhaps I wasn't following the current line of discussion properly. But as a quick response, to be perfect you must be without ability to fail.
Let's assume...

God is perfect. God creates Heaven. Angels are part of Heaven. Lucifer, an angel, rebels against God in jealousy. 1/3rd of angels follow Lucifer as God casts Lucifer out of Heaven. God makes the universe, earth, humans, etc, etc. Why does God need Humans to solve a problem when he is all-powerful? To prove soemthing about evil? Why should He prove Lucifer's being in error? He is supposedly all-knowing. Also, why would he ever need to create something that is fallible?

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You appear to be an ethical person because you accuse God of killing many innocent people.
I think you're taking out of context how I'd consider myself ethical. Besides, this debate is about religion and God, not me.

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God claims he is perfect, and therefore he cannot murder people because that would be falling short of perfect. By saying falling short, I am assuming that since you dislike murder you would call a murderer imperfect.
All the three of the big dogmas out there will have texts suppposedly having God saying He is perfect... Doesn't prove he is, doesn't prove he exists.

Here are some verses showing how God murdured people:

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)


"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth." (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)

My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB)

When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)

The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)

That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

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Would you mind expressing that in different words? As far I know God is not human....
Of course he's not... So why does he act like a sadistic tyrant, as can be seen in the verses above?


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Excuse me, but why do you see this as unjust? This is your opinion, then? Formulated on what basis? If he created you, then you are the wrong by saying it is unjust, because how is that for you to decide?
There's no proof the Judeo-Christian God created me or the universe. Also, it is smart to be sceptical of authority.

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If he created you, and he does not allow homosexuality, then he is unjust because you wish to go against the wishes of an almighty God because he is looking out for you?
Well I'm not homosexual, but as I'm saying it is smart to be sceptical of authority, especially in the case of God. There are many, many different Gods and religions, with all kinds of cultural rules. Any one of them could be ture, or all of them could be wrong.

Let's say a politician wants to restrict my freedom of expressing my liking of starwars, even my thoughts of liking starwars, because he claims it is 'for my own good'. Is it not wise to question this? Is it then not wise to question a God described in an ancient book that says 'Homosexuals should be put to death' (Levitcus 20:13, NAB)

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Murdering people? Justice, I would say. They disobeyed him, and they knew that was the wrong thing to do. They deserved it.
Uhuh. God murders women and children because they 'deserved it'... Makes perfect sense.

Lol please don't take my semi-sarcastic aggressiveness in this debate the wrong way. I tend to get heated up about it all. Of course, that what makes debates fun, the Adrenaline.


Please feed the trolls. XD

Last edited by Arcesious; 12-10-2008 at 10:50 PM.
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