View Single Post
Old 02-12-2009, 01:28 AM   #20
Qui-Gon Glenn
@Qui-Gon Glenn
Digory Kirke's Bafflement
Qui-Gon Glenn's Avatar
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Irune
Posts: 1,492
Current Game: KotOR awww yeah
Folder extraordinaire  Helpful!  Forum Veteran  Veteran Modder 
Originally Posted by Arátoeldar View Post
When I speak of these "Americans" I am specifically posting about the American left. Besides my post had nothing to with the Pope or the bishop being excommunication being lifted. It has do with those that think that the bishop shouldn't be fired from his job in the seminary because it it some how censoring the bishop.
Er, uh, you had me there for a minute.
Originally Posted by Web Rider View Post
Ah, yes, the horrible left. Excuse me, for a minute I thought you were saying all Americans were bad. It's just the people you disagree with. My mistake.
LOL. Thank you for expressing my thought clearly, WR.
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
I know Germans obviously are going to be very sensitive about this issue, but if that's not suppression of free speech there, I'm not sure what is.
Protection of "free speech" is laudable, but we do have to draw a line somewhere. IMHO, Jae, this is where it is drawn - in places where horrible things occurred, without a ton of dissent by the people who lived there, some who willingfully involved themselves in making it happen - those people lose a little of that freedom, so that such a thing won't happen there again.

I understand your struggle with it though, I share it, I am a Chomskyan ultimately on this matter.

Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
Partly conceded, however, I differentiate between the thoughts of an individual and the organisation he represents.
As you are welcome to do. Freedom of Speech does not imply freedom to say whatever you want and not fear getting canned for it. Your government protects you for being punished physically or mentally for your free expression - your pocketbook is your own problem.

Originally Posted by jonathan7
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
The bishop is a representative of the whole, and I know John Paul II believed in the holocaust, so I understand why the Bishop is being admonished if he chooses not to recant (remember, he has the option to recant and save himself from the punishment if he so desires).
This strikes me a bit like tyranny though, you will believe what we believe or we will hurt you...
Are you sure you are not simply playing devil's advocate here? We have facts regarding the event known as the Holocaust. This removes the predicate "belief" from the conversation. Tyranny is a stretch here, really.
Originally Posted by jonathan7
b) Read this before making any presumptions as to what I think about Freedom of speech - Overall jist, of my point; those with evil/wrong opinions must be allowed to speak so that their opinions can be shown to be incorrect.
Wow... J.S. Mill, that old Utilitarian... haven't read his work in a looooong time. I did like Ethical Theory I agree with your point, just not how you are making it, and I argue that you are juxtaposing opinion/belief for known fact, which is not an acceptable substitution. Breaks the equation....
Originally Posted by jonathan7
Take a scientist banned in the last year from speaking on how Africans are inferior to White's - based apparently on science. He was barred from talking, and as such the myth's he presents can hang on, had he been allowed to speak those in the scientific profession could of (**have**) destroyed his fallacious arguments. By stopping him from speaking, you don't give them the opportunity to rip his data to shreds.
Well, I hear you a little here, but really.... Beliefs like those are a dying breed, all by themselves. We don't need to stomp on them to make them any uglier or less appreciable - they do that for themselves.
Originally Posted by jonathan7
Thanks for a most enlightening post indeed DI
Qui-Gon Glenn is offline   you may: quote & reply,