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Old 03-31-2009, 01:32 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
That's the OP's call.
The OP doesn't get to decide whether or not your argument is a strawman. If you and I are dialoging about X and then you present a counter-argument as though we were discussing Y, then it's a strawman. We may discuss Y at some point, but for the sake of our discussion involving X, the Y argument is unrelated.

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
I went with the discussion on an interesting bifurcation. No, I don't think King would have been the kind of leader he was without his faith, and no, the civil rights movement would not have been the same had he not been a Christian pastor in a Christian black community galvanizing people to act in the name of Christ's love to overturn an unjust institution. I'm not entirely certain if that could be accomplished in today's society, as an aside.
This largely addresses the circumstance in which he acted. I was more interested in his motivation.

The argument that I thought I heard the OP making (and which I seem to be hearing here as well) is that Dr. King would have had no interest in the civil rights movement had it not be for his belief in jesus. A reoccuring argument that I hear from theists is that non-theist are incapable of moral reasoning or moral involvment. If that is the arguement that you would like to make, then I would like to discuss that, rather than whether or not he needed to appeal to the circumstances in order to accomplish what he did.

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
This is an area of special interest for me. Crap links aren't going to cut it for me on the history of King and the civil rights movement, just like crap links don't cut it for you, either. If you're going to call me out for sourcing, don't try to post non-historical garbage and expect me not to comment on the poor source quality.
And had I been sourcing, your argument would have significant merit. However as I stated before and I will state again here, I'm simply providing an introduction for those not familiar with the history.

It seems as though you want to introduce the claim that Gandhi had no influence on Dr. King without actually making it. If you accept that Gandhi had some influence on King, then we can move on. If you want to deny this or try to minimize it because you feel it helps your argument some how, then we can continue on the track we're on now. Just keep in mind that quotes that mention jesus don't tell me anything about Gandhi.

If you really want to make your case, please present a quote something along the lines of "Yeah, Gandhi was cool and all, but he was like, number 57 on my list. Jesus? He was definitely in the top 5". While it's possible such a quote exists, I suspect that it's highly unlikely, hence my bewilderment at why you would wish to make such a huge issue out of this and take a stance which seems almost impossible for you to defend.

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
You and I both know that King found Gandhi's methods of use in the civil rights movement, and why you would try to imply otherwise when I've talked in two separate posts above about Gandhi's influence on King's methods is bizarre.
I'm sorry, why I would try to imply what?

If you acknowledge Gandhi's influence, then I suppose I'm confused as to why you seem to want to minimize or dismiss it.

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
If you're going to quote about the influence of Gandhi's nonviolence on King's policies of non-violence, at least find something better than an article by a guy who doesn't even know how to cite sources (or a website owner that doesn't know how to include them if the journalist did originally cite them).
Indeed. If I make an argument that requires sourcing, I will be sure to keep this advice in mind. Thanks you.
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