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Old 12-12-2009, 04:17 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger View Post
First of all, the Light Side is not equivalent to good and the Dark Side is not equivalent to evil. Notions of good and evil are often subjective (finding true objective morality is possible, but difficult). Further more, there is no true evidence to suggest that there is some omnipotent malevolent impulse out to corrupt all beings.
Nearly all dark side powers are used to harm, debilitate, or kill, and the dark side is fed by negative emotions. Furthermore, use of the dark side has clear effects on the minds and bodies of its users (King Ommin of Onderon, arguably Palpatine himself, and plenty of other Sith have disfigurement or corruption effects from the dark side).

More importantly, the dark side has profound psychological effects and has a disturbingly high tendency to cause sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies among those who use the it regularly. The dark side also enhances the effects of anger, rage, hatred and wrath on its users to the point that even if they don't MEAN to cross the line, they will (Ulic Qel-Droma killing his own brother is a fine example of this).

Second of all, prove to me that Revan was corrupted.
Kreia herself says that Revan found the dark side's power while fighting in the Mandalorian Wars. Then, of course, there's the more recent unveiling that Revan's turn was cemented by the True Sith, and they were initially working for them when they returned to known space.

According to Kreia, he was true to himself.
So what? Kreia never says anything about Revan that isn't praise. Revan is her star pupil, the reason for her exile and arguably one of the greatest sources of fuel for her revenge against the Jedi Order. Of course she thinks he just "stayed true to himself".

His tactics were extremely efficient and did not waste life.
Revan deliberately engineered the slaughter of large numbers of his own troops in order to corrupt the Jedi Crusaders, and he deliberately allowed the Mandalorians to raze a number of planets in order to use those atrocities to rally support for himself.

I'm also waiting for an explanation for your implied belief that Revan's engineered destruction of Malachor V was justified.

People were only sacrificed when absolutely necessary,
Evidence, please? I've given you the above examples before. We know Revan's reason for sacrificing his pawns (the tests before the Star Map on Kashyyyk imply it, and Kreia confirms it on Dantooine in the second game), and I'm tired of you ignoring these examples.

and often resulted in the salvation of many others. This does not sound like someone under the sway of the Dark Side.
"The ends justify the means." So what? The First Galactic Empire brought civilization to many unorderly worlds, but that does not invalidate its numerous crimes elsewhere. Same deal with Revan.

Finally, consider for a moment the possibility that life under Revan's Empire was actually preferable to that of the Republic. We know that the latter was hopelessly incompetent and corrupt to the bone,
Corrupt to the bone by the time of The Phantom Menace, four thousand years later, perhaps, but you have time and time again told me that it was always that corrupt without giving any examples.

And, of course, there's your strange belief that if a government is corrupt, then it is just to carry out an unprovoked war against it.

but what about the nation that Revan built? An empire does not mean daily civil rights abuse,
The Sith Empire seemed to encourage abuse of non-human species as we see in KotOR I.

I do [not] need the Jedi to be perfect. If they were remotely any good I would leave them be. But they aren't:
Really? Not even remotely good? Are you paying any bloody attention to anything?

They can't even effectively fight the Sith at all!
The Jedi seem to be the only group that ever defeats the Sith throughout history. Who killed Exar Kun? The Jedi. Who defeated the Brotherhood of Darkness? The Jedi. Who killed Palpatine? The Jedi.

Sith=/=random cruelty. Sith=living as one with nature. The tendency for the Sith to kill everything in sight is a result of certain leaders in certain time periods.
...or nearly all of their leaders throughout most of history.

Go on, keep denying everything I'm saying without producing evidence of your own claims.

Malak completely shifted the Sith policies.
Evidence, please?

Meanwhile, you had Revan, who was far more efficient and level-headed;
Give me a break. Revan is nothing special as far as Dark Lords of the Sith go (Revan came closer to destroying the Republic and Jedi than Palpatine? Don't make me laugh).

and VP's example of Darth Vectivus.
I specifically asked for well-documented Sith. Vectivus is not well-documented, and even if he were, he is one example out of dozens of other Sith.

I could cite other Sith who weren't monsters,
But you won't because you can't. You don't even need to explain their works; just throw me a name and I can do the research myself.

but that'd take more time than I'm willing to spend
Oh, whoops. My mistake.

I would, however, be willing to cite a rather long list of Jedi who were monsters. Indeed, there are some Jedi who make the worst of the Sith look like Gizka.
Go ahead, I'm dying to learn about Jedi (who I've never heard of before) who are as harmful or malevolent as the likes of Sidious, Bane, Krayt, Malak, or Exar Kun. Who else in this thread is willing to bet that these examples will include a hefty dose of "alternate character interpretation"?

And what you are touching upon is what is wrong with Star Wars (or one of many things): the Sith are always written in as the villains.
What you think is "wrong" with the franchise is irrelevant to the fact that they are villains for a reason.

In the case of Darth Sidious, it is right to write him as a villain because he is one. On the other hand, you have some Sith who were truly good people, especially when they became Sith.
No, you don't. You only have people who used the fact that they wanted to do good things as a reason to go to the dark side. The only Sith that anyone pretends is morally ambiguous is Revan (the reason being that he's the player character. Nothing else.).

You misunderstand me. What I am pointing out is that Revan never chose the Dark Side, he pretended to.
Revan didn't "pretend to." He uses dark side powers, he has a Sith title, he formed a Sith order, he formed a Sith Empire, he trained Sith apprentices, and he used Sith artifacts and weapons (Star Forge, Trayus Academy). There is nothing in pretense about Revan's use of the dark side (even Kreia doesn't claim that Revan "pretended" to become a dark-sider, she just argues that it was justified, and that it was a turn instead of a fall, like that makes any difference).

It is perfectly possible for someone to be above the Dark and Light Sides of the Force. Take Cade Skywalker for example: his shown as using Dark Side abilities with little to no corruption of himself. His Wiki entry remarks that his behavior is definitely not that of a Jedi, but he easily resisted the Dark Side.
Cade is not "above" the dark/light system. You're misrepresenting my position by making it sound like I'm claiming that any and all use of the dark side is invariably and always profoundly corrupting. Using Force grip a few times is hardly that corrupting (Luke did it and he later turned out fine at the end of Episode VI). More importantly, the fact that Cade doesn't behave like a Jedi lends more evidence to the idea of the dark side influencing his actions.

It seems to me that it merely takes a strong will to use the respective sides of the Force without being influenced in turn. Hell, Dark Side abilities are apparently not Dark Side if you have benign intentions (hint: electric judgment).
The fact remains that more often than not, the dark side corrupts and is more dangerous than it's worth (and just because some Jedi use some dark powers does not mean they aren't corrupted at all).

You say this, but provide no proof whatsoever.
We see in the movies in Episodes II, III, and VI that just feeding dark side-aligned emotions brings one closer to the dark side (in the duel of Anakin against Dooku, Anakin's killing of the Tuskens, and Luke's duel with Vader, respectively). Exar Kun in the Tales of the Jedi series is corrupted purely by excessive foolhardy use of the dark side to help himself.

You cite the actions of some Sith, which are unfortunately cited as the representation of the whole.
I cite the actions of the majority of the Sith. You can't seem to come up with any examples of "noble" Sith other than Revan.

Furthermore, empires are not necessarily evil and democracies are not necessarily good.
No, but so far we haven't seen a just Sith Empire.

For god's sake, you cite Darth Sidious as the ultimate representation of the Sith, never minding the fact that he broke the Rule of Two and probably several other Sith guidelines on multiple occasions for his benefit alone.
I cite Sidious as such because he (1) has accomplished feats of the Force on his own that no other Sith in history has equaled and (2) because he came closer to final victory than any Sith before or since by irrevocably destroying the Republic and Jedi Order of his time and very nearly achieving immortality.

I can only assume your mention of Sidious breaking the Rule of Two refers to him training Maul before becoming the Dark Lord himself (since neither the Emperor's Hands, nor his Inquisitors or other dark-sider minions were Sith). What does it matter that he broke the rule? Bane's apprentice broke the Rule as well. The apprentice is supposed to be treacherous, and it's the master's job as the leader to enforce the Rule of Two.

Bane broke previous Sith philosophy by establishing the Rule of Two. What previous philosophy says doesn't matter if there's something more prudent to do. Also, please give some examples of other Sith guidelines Sidious has broken and why one should think less of him as a Sith for it.

The Sith are individualists, but they are also a culture. Darth Sidious was in many ways the greatest enemy of the Sith in that he endangered them by promoting anti-Force user sentiment in the Empire
Anti-Force user sentiment is one of the key tools he used to turn the galaxy against the Jedi. Besides, his eventual vision of the Empire was of a Sithian theocratic utopia (before he would take it further up from there).

intended to avoid passing on his teachings to a successor
If Palpatine was going to live forever, he wouldn't need a successor (Palpatine is hardly the first Sith to want immortality, either; Jorak Uln boasts that a true Sith never dies).

Again, you cite the actions of certain Sith. This does not mean that all Sith do this.
But virtually all of them do. Name a documented Sith Order that does not.

In fact, there is no teaching that says: go kill lots of people and bring pointless amounts of suffering to as many individuals as possible.
But they do it anyway. It pretty much goes hand in hand with the sentiment that only the "strong" deserve to live.

Meanwhile, the Jedi teachings do promote blind faith towards leaders, inefficiency, emotion dysfunctionality, and the inability to adjust to new circumstances.
Don't bother giving any examples; only blanket statements.

It has everything to do with this: dumbed-down plot with overly simplistic morality and pathetically linear sequence of events.
Your opinion of TFU is as irrelevant to this discussion as your opinion of the Prequels was the last time we debated.

Translation: No matter what consistent points you make, you will always be wrong.
You don't make consistent points. In fact, you seem to go out of your way to avoid citing any specifics from the canon, instead preferring to substitute your own ideas of what it should be.

My point that I attempt to make is that while some Sith are indeed hellspawn (such as Darth Sidious), most are not and are rather quite the opposite. Your constant response to every argument I make is that all Sith are hellspawn because of the actions of those that are. I find this very poor logic indeed.
You know what? I'll bite. I've got time.

Pre-Great Hyperspace War: The predecessors of the Sith Order, the Dark Jedi Exiles, led by one Ajunta Pall, enslaved the Sith species after their arrival on Korriban using their powers in the Force. The Exiles had previously been banished from the Jedi Order for tapping into abuse-prone dark side powers and (what later came to be called) Sith alchemy, and they responded by declaring war and raising armies of dark side abominations to wage said war.

Tulak Hord: Known Dark Lord of the Sith and considered a master swordsman. Insufficient information to draw any further conclusions.

Marka Ragnos: Evidently considered the greatest Dark Lord of his age. About a millennium after his death, his spirit declared Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma to be Sith Lords, making Ragnos instrumental in the escalation of their fates.

Great Hyperspace War: Upon rediscovering the Galactic Republic long after the end of the Hundred-Year Darkness, Naga Sadow's first decision was to declare (unprovoked) war on it.

Freedon Nadd: Former Jedi who eventually turned to the dark side out of spite for not being promoted to the rank of Jedi Knight when he expected himself to be. As a Sith, he made himself the tyrant ruler of Onderon until his death, after which his spirit returned and, among other things (such as seeking to resurrect himself), influenced Exar Kun's turn to the dark side later.

Naddist Revolt: A group of Sith cultists (the Naddists) attempted to overthrow the Onderonian government. The first engagement of this conflict was one in which the Naddists attacked a funeral procession in order to steal the corpse of the Sith Lord Freedon Nadd.

Great Sith War: The young Jedi Exar Kun struck out on his own to learn the secrets of the dark side, in the hopes of using that power for good. With the help of Freedon Nadd's spirit, ended up fully giving into the dark side and eventually becoming a Sith Lord himself. During his time as a dark-sider, he single-handedly enslaved the Massassi race on Yavin 4 and elevated himself to a deity status among them. He then enlisted a group of Mandalorians and Krath, and declared war on the Republic with them. His crimes include corrupting numerous Jedi to the dark side, crashing the trial of Ulic Qel-Droma (Kun's apprentice, who was on trial for war crimes or some ****) and murdering the Republic's Supreme Chancellor and a large portion of the Senate. Several thousand years later, his spirit corrupted the Jedi Kyp Durron and induced him to use an Imperial superweapon to destroy an entire star system.

Mandalorian Wars/Jedi Civil War: Revan and Malak led a group of Jedi to help the Republic defeat the marauding Mandalorians. As they fought in the war, they became corrupted by the dark side, and after learning of the existence of the so-called "true" Sith Empire in the unknown regions, Revan gave into the dark side entirely, believing that he could use it to save the galaxy from this threat. During the war, he cemented a power base for himself by exposing his armies and followers to war atrocities, and therefore to the dark side. He deliberately engineered/allowed the Mandalorian massacre of Republic civilians and troops in order to corrupt his followers, and therefore make them loyal to him, rather than the Republic.

After using a superweapon to destroy the followers which he could not corrupt, along with all life on the planet of Malachor V in the process, Revan led his loyal followers into the unknown regions. There, their turn to the dark side was cemented by the leader of the true Sith Revan had learned about from Trayus Academy, and they were sent back to prepare the way for an invasion by the "true" Sith Empire. With the Star Forge behind him, Revan declared war on the Republic, starting the Jedi Civil War in an unprovoked attack on a strategic Republic military target.

During the Jedi Civil War, Darth Revan seemed to focus on dealing with converting as many Jedi as possible. As such, he assembled a cadre of elite Sith assassins to capture Jedi alive and bring them to the dark side any means necessary, up to and including torture. One of the more notable atrocities of the war was the Battle of Telos IV, in which Darth Malak, Revan's apprentice and second in command, ordered Saul Karath to attack and destroy the surface of the planet, in order to test his loyalty to the Sith. There is no evidence to suggest that Revan disapproved of this atrocity, or that he had Karath or Malak punished for these crimes.

First Jedi Purge: Following the Jedi Civil War, which left the Republic's ability to maintain a military nearly gone, the Sith Triumvirate continued to purge the galaxy of Jedi, led by three Sith Lords. The only supposedly "morally ambiguous" of the three, Darth Traya, preaches survival of the strong, chastises the Exile for helping innocents, uses the Force to steal information from Atton's head to blackmail him with, prolongs Hanharr's agony by saving and enslaving him with another life debt, manipulates and intimidates the rest of the Ebon Hawk's crew into doing what she wants, kills the three Jedi Masters (when she had previously claimed she wanted them alive) when she could have taken them alive, deliberately puts Telos in danger by drawing Nihilus there (sending Tobin essentially to his death in order to do so), uses the Exile to kill her enemies, and all to get revenge on the people she says wronged her.

Great Galactic War: Sith Empire from unknown regions invades Republic, in another unprovoked war (unless the mere existence of the eeeeevil Jedi and corrupt Republic of corruption was an unbearable obstacle to their survival). Notable atrocities include the Battle of Manaan (the Sith attacked a neutral world there, destroying all surface settlements) and the Alderaan Peace Conference, where they used said conference as a distraction while they attacked Coruscant, bombarding the planet to the point that the Republic was forced to surrender and cede large swaths of their territory or face total destruction.

New Sith Wars: A fallen Jedi named Phanius took the title of Darth Ruin, raised an army of Sith cultists and acolytes who remained from the last few wars, and started a thousand-year-long war with the Republic. Ruin was eventually betrayed and killed by his followers.

Dark Underlord: Sith Lord known to be the Dark Lord in the New Sith Wars for a time, and believed by some to be a dark side entity summoned from Chaos. Insufficient information to draw any relevant conclusions.

Darth Rivan: Known to be the Dark Lord elsewhere in the New Sith Wars. Settled on Almas, where he studied the dark side (and was believed to keep slaves there). One of his achievements was the creation of Sith battlelords, which were essentially the result of using Sith alchemy to reduce Sith minions into a mindless drones.

Belia Darzu: Later Dark Lord (Lady) of the Sith. Notable accomplishments included the use of Sith alchemy to create the Technobeast virus, which reduced those who suffered from it to zombie-like organic/machine hybrids.

Kaan: Last leader of the New Sith Empire. Little information about him before his death, aside from basic backstory info..

Darth Bane: Easily one of the more ruthless of the well-documented Dark Lords. Was vehemently opposed to Lord Kaan's ideals of equality in the Sith Order. When Bane was poisoned by Githany on Ambria, Bane killed a random passing-by family, feeding off of their fear and horror in order to temporarily stave off the effects of the poison. He also manipulated Kaan's Sith into using the Thought Bomb, which killed all of the Jedi and Sith present and trapped their souls there for another thousand years.

Darth Zannah: Bane's apprentice. Known for using the Force to drive enemies insane.

Darth Cognus: An amoral assassin known only as "the Huntress" before she became Zannah's apprentice. Cognus described herself as only wanting "power and purpose" in her life.

Darth Millennial: Apprentice to Darth Cognus. Not much is known about him except that, dissatisfied by the Rule of Two, he left the Sith Order and formed a cult of his own called the Prophets of the Dark Side, which existed long enough to be brought into Galactic Emperor Palpatine's service.

Darth Vectivus: Known to be a businessman and not much else. After his death, the Jedi Nelani Dinn encountered what appeared to be a ghost or spectre of Vectivus near his home. Vectivus (or whatever remnant of him the apparition was) tried to tempt Nelani with the dark side.

Darth Ramage: A Sith mentioned in passing in the third Coruscant Nights book. Essentially no information about him.

Darth Plagueis: Master of Darth Sidious. If the Galactic Emperor's recollections of his training are of any indication, Plagueis was a psychologically brutal to his student ("Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you; tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face; tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you; and tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you.).

I'm not going to detail Palpatine, Vader, or Maul, because you already seem to think they're evil, for some elusive reason.

Darth Tyranus: Intended to establish a radically (even more so than the First Galactic Empire) human-supremacist Sith Empire with its rule enforced by an order of dark side enforcers, with all Force-sensitives in the galaxy either forced into its membership or killed.

Post-Battle of Endor:

Carnor Jax: A power-hungry man who was formerly a member of the Emperor's Royal Guard. His only real motivation was to seize control of what remained of Palpatine's Empire.

Lumiya: Conspired with Vergere, a former highly unorthodox Jedi and alleged former apprentice of Palpatine, to select the next Dark Lord of the Sith. Both of them played a important roles in manipulating Jacen Solo's views of morality and about ends justifying the means, proving instrumental in his turn to the dark side.

Darth Caedus: Formerly known as the Jedi Jacen Solo. Known actions include interrogating/torturing Ailyn Vel to the point of killing her, attempting to shape Ben Skywalker in order to make him a Sith apprentice by deliberately putting him into situations where he'd have to make self-compromising decisions, murdering Mara Jade, executing at least one officer under him for failure, and bombarding Kashyyyk for having Jedi-sympathetic Wookiees on it.

The One Sith, led by Darth Krayt: Engineered a war between the Galactic Alliance and the Second Galactic Empire and seized control of said Empire. The most notable atrocity of that time period is when Krayt ordered ten percent of the Mon Calamari population to be killed, and survivors sent to prison camps.

The above list includes every single prominent documented Sith Lord in canon history that I could think of (focusing on the Dark Lords), and then some. You don't even need to bother quoting the rest of my post; just tell me which of these are morally superior to the entirety of the Jedi, and how.

"Grant Allen [...] had written a book about the Evolution of the Idea of God. [...] it would be much more interesting if God wrote a book about the evolution of the idea of Grant Allen." ~ G. K. Chesterton, The Everlasting Man

Last edited by TKA-001; 12-12-2009 at 04:59 PM.
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