Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Firstly I would like to make a rather large objection to this thread, which is that a person, a human being is defined by their "sexuality". Human beings are so much more than being "straight" or "gay". Our sexuality makes up in reality a very small proportion of who we are. The moment you start referring to individuals in categories you consider "bad" you de-humanise them and make it far more easy to cask aspersions on their character. That said in the terms of the conversation I am going to have to use the above labels to articulate my point. Though my "gay" friends, I would usually just describe as friends, as I don't usually classify my friends in conversation such as my "Indian friends", my "female friends" my "retired friends" etc
Essentially this seems like a non-issue to me, no-where in the Bible does it say that non-Jew or non-Christian has to adhere to Christian (or Jewish law), although they will be judged by it. However Christianity, under Jesus (and Paul) was never a religion which forced those outside it by compulsion or law to adhere to it. As such while I maybe a Christian, and I may have my own thoughts on homosexuality, that has no impact upon societies laws, nor upon my friendships with others (several of my best friends are gay). I don't care if the state recognizes gay marriage or not, and I dare say that some of my gay friends would make far better parents than many straight couples I know, so why shouldn't they adopt? I know, no-one can quote me a Bible passages saying that gay-couples shouldn't adopt.
Also making homo-sexuality illegal doesn't achieve anything; people aren't going to stop being gay due to it being illegal. There is a further question here, if the majority of a country is "secular" should they be ruled by the rules of a minority? Also to point out in the New-Testament Paul writes about homosexuality outside the Church, but aside from saying believers should not involve themselves in such relationships he says nothing of what those outside the Church should do, asside from saying they don't know better, so the believers should show them love and mercy, and explain the Gospel to them. Explaining the Gospel, is explaining the need for Jesus, his love, and loving others; not things that are forbidden. How does this look?
I remember in my first year at University two of my room-mates were a Lesbian couple, and they used to come along to every event the CU put on, until one of the Christian girls announced to them they were both going to hell for being gay. Just a quick Christian Theology 101, but the Bible is pretty clear that you go to hell for not believing in Jesus; the Bible says all have (believers or non believers) fallen short of the Glory of God. In general Christian Theology, it is not an individuals sexuality which decides where they are going; there will be gay people in heaven, indeed I think some of those Christians who are so anti-gay may well NOT be in heaven. But that is for someone far wiser than me to judge...
The curiosity to me of these Christians who are so cruel towards gay people is that they don't act in a manner of mercy or love that aforementioned Jesus and Paul would. Indeed, Phillip Yancey who is a Christian writer somewhat critical of the Church points out, at some Gay Pride Marches, the Gay marchers would have boards saying "Jesus loves me", while so called Christians would have banners filled with hatred and vitriol - it reminded me a lot of the Pharisee's, Jesus fought against in the Bible. The only people through the Gospels accounts of Jesus is ever "harsh" towards is the Pharisee's, not the "sinners"...
So what do I think of homosexuality? My gay friends it would seem to me, did not choose to be gay, with one of them, I could tell from when he was 12 years old that he was going to be gay. The psychological evidence also suggests we are not 100% gay or 100% straight, but that it is a sliding scale. I also think that you can be Christian and gay (and shock horror practising); I say this because the Bible says all sin is bad, so if you are a Christian reading this, you know that woman you lustfully looked at... In the eyes of God that's just the same as an individual in a gay relationship.
It finally seems to me that there is a great deal of fear from some Christians of gay people, I may suggest that this is related to a deep and profound insecurity in their own sexuality rather than that of gay people. Indeed, the reaction of gay people toward Christianity, I think is of the Churches own making, the Church should be there to pick up and look after those with who society disdains. Instead the Church for a considerable while led the persecution of gay people so is it any surprise gay people don't like the Church? People should think the Church is a place to go for safety, help and sanctuary, however many in the West, think of the Church as judging, mean and narrow minded. I think personally they would be right to do so, so if your a Christian I think the far greater issue that the "gay debate" is to turn the Church into what it should be, rather than telling "non-Christians" how they should live their lives...
j7's shiney 2 cents...
"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore
"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran