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Old 02-13-2011, 09:15 PM   #10
jonathan7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
jonathan7,

I must say that you've helped me out a GREAT deal here! As for Hitler, I don't quite know what to say about where his soul should go now that he is dead, but I do agree that his soul should be separated from others--especially the ones whom he slaughtered. The problem that I have with Hell, however, has three components:
Hey, well I'm glad I was able to be of some help! =) If I make a number of comments on the subject of hell (somewhat strange as generally I've have little to say on it). There are various Christian doctrines about the nature of hell which I think are wrong, and indeed you won't actually find them in the Bible. Generally with both Heaven and Hell most things said about them are mere hypothesis and baseless subjection at worse.

I shall elaborate, firstly I can find no scriptural basis for Hell being infinite, the person who actually mentions it most is quotations of Jesus, where he generally says it is a "wailing and knashing of teeth" other scriptural references say it is a place where everything good from God is absent; which I would suppose is where the doctrine of some Christian sects of there not being a hell comes from.

I would observe that, it would seem from my review of scripture we can say only a few things about Hell; 1. It exsists 2. It is a place people are sent after they have been Judged; however little else is really said on the subject, nor is any time period put on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
1) All who fall short of (God's) standard of absolute perfection--flawlessness, if you will--shall go to Hell after they die. Since none of us humans have ever reached, or even come close to reaching, this standard of perfection, then it follows that every single one of us will be condemned to this particular place.
Firstly let me say this, I'm generally of the opinion that all Children will go to heaven, up until a point of knowing right from wrong. But what happens to a theoretical individual who never hears of Jesus but always does the right thing? I think the problem of Evil is an important thing within the discussion we are having... Should you be interested here is something I wrote a few years ago, others may have read which you may find of interest;

Show spoiler


First question; how do you know none have reached this standard? This I think is an important point, since in the Old Testament, God was with individuals such as Noah, Abraham, Moses etc, they were from a historical time orientated point of you before Jesus. Indeed there are two individuals who did not die in the OT; Enoch and Elijah, the latter is written to have ascended to heaven.

Regardless, if we move onto the problem of evil, Adam and Eve were created perfect, but God gave them free choice. He gave them only one instruction and they choose to disobey it, they also believed the lies of the snake and ultimately believed ill of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
We will experience a permanent separation from God and His love. God's plan, according to Christianity, was to solve this problem through sending and sacrificing Jesus, but there still remains a counterpoint. A -1 to this point, if you will. In short, it goes like this:

-1) If God did not want to create beings who were equal to Himself--and, if God Himself is perfect--then, NATURALLY, the beings he created would be IMPERFECT(or at least weaker or less powerful than He). So, how can He condemn every single one of his imperfect creatures to Hell right from the very beginning? Some would say that since Adam and Eve were at first without sin in the Garden of Eden, then they WERE perfect.
Well, what do you mean by perfect? You seem to be saying perfect beings is the same as being God, which I don't think go hand in hand. Lets say I make a perfect mug, is it imperfect because it not like me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
However, I don't believe this is true. If Adam and Eve were perfect beings, then they wouldn't have listened to Satan and yielded to his temptation.
Well, God gave the ability to choose... Is the ability to choose what makes them imperfect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
They would have told him to "go to Hell," so to speak, and made the right choice instead of the wrong one. If Adam and Eve were perfect humans in the Garden of Eden, they would have known and done better because it was their NATURE. I know that my explanation here might be confusing as heck, but my ultimate point is this:
Personally I disagree with your reasoning, however this is your journey and not mine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
How can God demand perfection of us (humans) if He created us as lesser, that is to say imperfect, beings?
Well, in what sense do you think God demands perfection of us?

Quick story, an angel is giving an individual a tour of heaven and hell, in hell he saw a table full of food, the tables were set and everyone had really long spoons, yet all the individuals were starving they couldn't eat. He then went upto heaven, where he saw the same table, with the same long spoons but all the individuals were well-fed and healthy. He asked the angel what's the difference? The angel answered, everyone has to eat with a spoon far to long to feed themselves, in hell no-one will feed each other, where as in heaven the individuals feed each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
Right now, I'd like to ask another question:

DOES HITLER GO TO HELL? On this point, most definitely yes, because Hitler was far, far, FAR from it. I disagree, however, that we ALL should be where Hitler is because of our own weakness and flaws.
I don't know where Hitler is It was more a question for you, I have my suspicions as to where he will have gone however it isn't my place to judge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
Now, on to Hell Problem 2:

2) There is absolutely NO HOPE in Hell, and no chance of redemption.
How do you know that?

Couple of scriptural quotes for you*;

1 Peter 3:19 "After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits"

1 Peter 4:6 "For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit".

* Be sure to read the quotations in the context of the chapter, I have seen a lot of people use lots of books and even the Bible, by selectively quoting things to twist and change meaning. But in any respect, I think the above are interesting, and are where the Catholic teaching on Purgatory originates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
-2) If you compare Hell to a prison here on Earth, then that's really an unfair comparison because, at least to my knowledge, Earth's prison should be a "rehabilitative" place as well as one in which you are punished. In Hell, though, this is a no-go. The purpose of Hell is, in my opinion, also threefold: 1) to punish humans for their sins 2) to separate them fully from God, who cannot tolerate sin or evil and 3) to make sure there is no possibility of lost souls ever returning or being raised so that they can sin some more.
This depends somewhat on your the dogma you adhere to, there is a lot of doctrinal variation in Christianity, and to me, a lot of "standard" doctrines are the work of arrogant and stupid men, rather than actually being the truth. Hint, I greatly dislike both Calvin and Luther.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
DOES HITLER GO TO HELL? Again, on this point, yes, but there's a glitch: If Hitler was THE worst person on Earth, let's say, and if Hitler was cast into a place where there is no more hope, EVER, then what hope do the rest of us have? Sure, we may not have engineered the Holocaust or murdered millions, but still--in Hell, there is no hope for Hitler, and no hope for us. I consider it a shame that if everything about Hell and Heaven is true, we only have about seventy to one hundred years to "get it right" and believe (in Jesus) before we are separated from God for an INFINITE amount of time. Hence point 3:

3) Man and Man's deeds are finite, and yet Hell is an infinite punishment.

I think I have offered sufficient counter arguments to this now? Though please let me know if you would like me to elaborate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
-3) Some would say that Man's sins, flaws, weaknesses and disobedience infinitely offend God and make Him angry. Man has, in essence, betrayed and committed "cosmic treason" against God. Thus, every man, woman and child on Earth--each one a sinner--should be infinitely separated from God and cast into Hell, where they will be infinitely punished. However, if this is true, then where does forgiveness come in? Some would say that if you didn't accept God's forgiveness on earth, during the finite time in which you were physically alive, then you SHOULD never have another chance to do so.
It's not their place to say or know what God will do, I do not think enough is written on Hell for us to say much at all about it, though I think God powerful enough to save men even from the grips of hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
DOES HITLER GO TO HELL? Here's where I have no idea, honestly. I do not know whether Hitler deserves to suffer INFINITELY for what he did, and NEVER be forgiven, even by God.
Just to re-iterate their is no scriptuaral basis I know of that an individual going to hell suffer infinitely. Fundamentalists will insist on it, but I have yet to experience one beating me in a debate on the subject, the Bible even says man is not to judge Satan....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
So, I have a serious problem with Hell, and the premises upon which it's based.
Fair enough, I hope I have however given you reason to doubt some of the things you have been taught on it. I am happy to go over any scriptures with regards hell if you would like to bring them up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
As for the Christian former gang members and drug dealers, it gladdens my heart to hear that they do these things because, as you said, "they want to make a difference to others/are thankful for what's been given to them." In my opinion, that's the way it should be, but my pastor made it sound like "If you're REALLY saved, then you WILL do X, Y, Z."
I like the picture of a small child doing their best to please a parent because they love their father or mother rather than having to do anything to earn their love.

DI was replying as I was writing mine, so my apologies to him for not having responded to any of the points he made in what I think is an excellent post. I also like it as I think it shows that despite what some "Protestants" would claim their is a lot more similarity between Catholicism and Protestantism; given that DI and me are on either side of that. I hope one day to see the two Churches re-united!

This did stick out to me;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
And being a Christian doesn't mean never doubting. We call that fanaticism. Even great Christians doubt sometimes. As I said, we tend to call it the 'dark night of the soul' (a term coined by the mystic St John of the Cross), or 'spiritual dryness'. You're not alone in feeling this. And people who have never doubted, or who pretend not to, are either fanatics or disingenuous. Therese of Lisieux wrote of this, but she is now considered a saint.
There is a book called "The Dark night of the Soul" by St John of the Cross (the version I have also has assorted writings of his). It is an excellent book, and I think you may well enjoy it, though the language used is of the older kind (at least in my version), but a great work none the less. You may also find the book of Job a helpful book at this time to!



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran

Last edited by jonathan7; 02-13-2011 at 09:35 PM.
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