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Old 10-24-2011, 02:18 AM   #33
Darth Avlectus
@Darth Avlectus
I'd buy that for a dollar
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: My pervert mansion
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Current Game: A dirty old man.
That's an interesting question to ponder OP.

Basic and blunt answer: one of two things would have happened,
Either the "kill the force" thing would have worked and it actually would have killed everyone, OR it wouldn't have worked and she'd just have created a paradoxical abomination--which maybe would have killed a lot of people but like the atomic bomb and even bouncing a ball, it would probably have petered out and people elsewhere would still live. I can't be too sure which one to be honest.

I don't think a "death to all life" and "wound in the force/black hole" narrative is a bad thing, nor necessarily is it invalid.
Actually Nihilus' whole "lost body due to force use" isn't as rare as some would think in terms of "magic" because I guess letting dependency and consumption end up controlling you makes you a shadow of your former self from a metaphorical point of view. It also makes someone less than whole in terms of ficiton and fantasy, at least so much as I understand it.

As Kreia/Traya said it: if they had only gone to the "darkest parts" of the galaxy (within themselves) rather than "wait for the echo to reach them" they would have seen it for what it was and that it was not the Exile who was the real threat. The Exile, if anything, could have used their help. I do wonder how much differently it all would have ended up if that were the case.

It would seem to me that the only one who was really a Jedi throughout that whole ordeal was the Exile...okay maybe the Disciple as well. But in any case, it was the Exile who was the catalyst.

Kreia/Traya came to realize that she wasn't powerful enough to defeat her former associates in any case. Her motivation was twofold making her overall gray:
Light sided, she had to undo the damage she did. And she knew after what transpired at the enclave, that she could never really atone for that which she was responsible--and she recognized she was part of the problem and that she too must be purged;
Dark sided, as I said she was part of the problem, dependent on the force, and had some irreconcilable evils about her she could not simply live on with (in both her estimation during her more sane moments and AND the estimation of anyone half level-headed).

She's an unreliable narrator but it would seem out of necessity more than choice. She knew the triumvirate was abominable in her lighter moments. The only hope was the Exile, who was in need of spiritual healing, of growth. So she had to
1) overstate the threat, because it was the only way the Exile would grow and return to fulfill her role. Having a purpose was the only real way to set things in motion.
2) appear to be more of a threat once the basic truth about the threat was revealed. More for the Exile's benefit than anything. How people can miss this point is beyond me.

She used you in order to end the reign of these sith, the corrupted remnants of the republic. The other side of her was irreconcilably corrupted and hurt especially since her hope for redemption in either scenario is dashed.

Originally Posted by Rtas Vadum View Post
The black hole idea really doesn't fit, although it may be close. I say that, mostly because it suggests the exile forcibly draws energy from everyone, which she does, but not like Nihilus. Where he draws energy from any source, the Exile draws only a limited amount- likely not enough to actually drain someone of life, or their force power(the actual powers themselves, notwithstanding).
I think the difference here is explained in that the Exile cut herself off from the force and realized she didn't need it to live. She exercised control over herself, regardless out of necessity to live or not. Actually, if one practices self control, one would find a purpose, even if just because one realizes that such a thing is another step to enlightenment.

Whereas Nihilus, whether actually undead or just a junkie of a sort did not exercise any control over himself whatsoever. He had to take the expedient path to greater power and it ended up weakening him because the pace was not sustainable.

Basically I agree, I'm only offering an explanation of maybe the why.

When the life around the Exile is plentiful, it is easy to draw the needed energy. Why could Kreia almost kill the Exile in the Enclave? Well, it mirrors Malachor, with the lingering feeling of dead Jedi, and even the planet itself is mostly desolate(not to mention the bond between the two, and a blade in the stomach). The reason the same doesn't happen on Malachor V during the endgame, in a similar scenario? Kreia's comment that you are not truly a Jedi or a Sith. Malachor is a world plentiful in the force, and the Exile uses that, no matter which side he or she lays claim to.
That more or less supports sustainability. The Exile adapted, and found another way. Others did not.

Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
Sorry, but no. Kreia's a Sith Lord. The Jedi by default are her enemy, and she hates those particular Jedi especially by virtue of being the same Council that exiled her. Had her aim been to "prove them wrong", there is a chance that she might have, I don't know, tried to talk to them or something instead of essentially dumping a jigsaw puzzle (the Exile) into their lap and giving them five minutes to figure it out. Then there's the rather silly assumption that Kreia had no way of saving the Exile without killing the Masters.
I disagree. Kreia might not be jedi, but she saw the way of the sith did not ultimately have what she was searching for either. I'm not saying she wasn't evil, but I am saying her evil isn't as absolute as you are making it sound. It was precarious until the enclave scene. IMO could have changed for the light had things worked out differently. One begins to ponder at how many other possibilities could have been made for this story.

What Kreia does is stop them, lecture them in a clearly threatening way, waste them with Force drain, and them proceed to rant at their dead bodies. That isn't what someone who wanted to reason would do.
To your credit: Part of the reason, I think, for her irrational freakout was in the fact that she blamed the force itself for her failings and not herself. Then of course she was a force-dependent and part of the abominable triumvirate.

However, the other part of it was hinged around her getting her hopes up that the council would "see the light", acknowledge the lesson she "sought to teach". They did not and it all went to hell. Maybe it's just me, but I do see a possibility, actually, that if the council had rectified/retracted its judgment of the Exile (you know, actually ACTING like jedi), that she would redeem herself. Even if they did not initially retract their judgment of her, them seeing the light about the exile would have opened their eyes to the "lesson [she] had sought to teach" over time.

Though she was successful in slaying the council (if such a terrible action could be called that), the act was ultimately futile. Then there really was nowhere else left to go but back to the dark side.

Having been betrayed she may have begun conjuring "kill the force", but despite all of that she had hoped on a gamble to set the Exile on the path to becoming whole again. That to me says that despite all her folly, she cared for at least one other than herself. It may have been attached to her pride and proving her "being right", but I don't seriously think she would have done what she did if she didn't genuinely care for the Exile on some level.

Originally Posted by DeathScepter View Post
This is my theory only:

I do think that she was wrong on her assumption about the force bond at first. No matter how intelligent you are, it is normal to be wrong in your assumption.
That in itself is one of the ultimate forms of intelligence. What you just acknowledged.

Also I do think that over time that Kreia learned that it wasn't so. I have a theory that she had a deathwish and manipulated the Jedi Exile to believing it and getting to the Malchor 5 and forcing her to fight Kreia on her terms.
Hoping the council would pull their collective head out of their collective ass may have been hoping/asking too much, but I do believe that Kreia saw a worthiness in the Exile, with hope at least she would learn the lessons.

It was implied in one of her conversation that the 3 Sith Lords deserve to die because if they won't be stopped they would ruin the entire galaxy.
While I do believe there is truth in this, I theorize also that in a sith victory
1) Nihilus would starve and weaken out in space with nothing to consum until he ceased to exist, though he probably would have done a lot more damage before he went down.
2) Sion having nobody left to torment would eventually see no purpose to his "immortality" and come to the same conclusion [albeit much, much later] that the life he's been living as an "immortal" has not been "worth it". The belief and purpose could not continue to hold him.

it was implied in the cut content with Lonna Vash, When someone switch alignments and other reasons, A force bond can be weaken. I do think that by following to dark side, Kreia weaken the force bond a great deal. Due to the unnaturalness of the force bond, I do think that Kreia saved the Jedi Exile by going to the Dark side.
Hm. That works for me. When someone changes drastically, your intimacy of that other is displaced. That's only logical. To me anyways.

Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
Not good enough for me. If the Exile collapses in agony when Kreia gets her hand cut off, then it follows that Kreia dying would probably kill her, too (and if we want to get lawerly, I know of at least one other instance of the exact thing happening in the EU, in the instance of a bond arguably weaker than Kreia's and Exile's).
I knew this one would come up. You can take this or leave it, no skin off my nose. I'll try.

Kreia, snapping at what the council was going to do to the Exile, would have tweaked the bond enough that severing it might not have been deadly to the Exile at that point, which is one of my main gripes about TSL. It does not do enough to explain this. Whether the writers just forgot or circumstances forced their hand, is certainly arguable.

In that example you cite, between Tae and Elora, the nature of both characters hadn't changed much prior to that point. It was forcibly (no pun) severed and there was no readiness on Elora's part, so it was traumatic enough to kill.

The Exile may (or may not) have been unique, but I am of the opinion that in any case, a bond between any two can be twisted and weakened (hence preparation and readiness) to a point where severing the bond would not be deadly traumatic if one of two characters has undergoes a severe change altering their relationship.

I do believe what with the Exiles prior experience, and things playing out the way they did, that this was the case for the Exile.

Even if we give Kreia the benefit of the liar's license and concede the lethality as such, it's still not handled well in the story itself. To my knowledge, the bond is never even mentioned again in the game after the Exile defeats Atris - cut content or otherwise. I should think that the confrontation with Darth Traya would be a good time to bring it up again. It's like the writers just plain forgot about it.
That, or time constraints didn't allow them to spot this until the game was already published. Interpret that however you will.

(Branch warning) Now that I think about it, the story has a lot of elements that one would think indicate a very different set of endings. The Exile and Malachor are both wounds in the Force that are said (well, sorta) can kill it and everyone who hears it (which depending on your interpretation means either a fraction of the universe's population or the totality of it), the Ebon Hawk crashes and then falls down a chasm on Malachor (arguably making its return at the end a deus ex machina/asspull), and there's a 50/50 chance of the planet being destroyed. It seems to me then that the Exile's choice would be to let herself and the party die in order to remove the wounds in the Force, or leave/stay and let the wounds remain, potentially causing an incalculable number of deaths.
I think you're getting it, but your perception and mine are two different things. I have wondered at this possible ending as well.

I always thought that if the Exile was the one who had overcome the "wound" of her force essence (meaning she had healed regardless of LS/DS outcome) then she was no longer a threat. The other "wounds in the force" had been ended, so the breach was sealed and the threat would have ended.

Again one wonders if they would have damned all life, or if it would have petered out.
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