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Old 03-04-2012, 06:42 PM   #12
Istorian
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Join Date: May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pho3nix View Post
My heart goes out to all Greek citizens, hope you all pull out of this mess alive. I have a huge love for your country.
Thank you, that really means a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon View Post
So yes, they lied, and just like a guy hiding his debts and overstating his income in order to get new loans, once people find out, the pain is much worse.
I won't disagree with you about whether they lied or not, mainly because I don't know whether they lied or not, and I don't have a clue. But, as you said, they lied. But they get to keep their villas, while we, the middle and lower classes, have to get double jobs to make ends meet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon View Post
Greece doesn't just have a problem with corrupt politicians, it has a problem of people not having faith in the institutions. When "everyone" dodges taxes (yes, the wealthy tend to be better at this, the point still stands), and "everyone" tries to fool the system (like trying to claim benefits they aren't eligible for), running the country becomes that much harder, and crucially, more expensive (ex: more tax money spent on trying to catch tax dodgers= less tax money for other things).
No, Greece does have a problem with corrupt politicians and it began in 1981, but we didn't know it until a few years ago and it was too late. The real problem is that we cannot vote a decent one, because all of them are corrupt. About the people trying to avoid taxes, I agree it is a phenomenon. One, however, that we observe from extremely well-paid doctors, lawyers, engineers etc. Because, no, the simple Greek citizen who sells groceries, or has a bakery, doesn't try to avoid taxes, no matter if he can't pay them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon View Post
When it comes to blaming Germany (and anyone else that's bailing out Greece), keep in mind that they have to keep their own voters in mind too. Just throwing money at Greece without conditions would be electoral suicide.
I never blamed Germany. It is a different country and it acts on its own accord, as you point out correctly. I just mentioned Germany because it is the country which pulls most strings in the EU. However, I feel no ill will against Germany or the Germans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon View Post
For what it's worth, I don't think the austerity measures imposed is doing Greece any good in the long term, however if that's the cost of getting a bailout, it's the best solution that's politically feasible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf View Post
Perhaps the Greeks should just unass themselves from the EU and sink or swim on their own.
This is the dilemma. What to do? In modern global economy, a state of 11 million citizens, cannot do much with an isolated economy. Of course, that's not good. On the other hand, why continue a policy if we agree it's going to do no good in the long term (and the short one, as it seems). My opinion is, why doesn't the Greek government say: "Hey, IMF, thank you, but no thank you. This problem was caused by borrowing, and we obviously cannot solve it by borrowing more. So we will stop borrowing, we will give early pensions to many in the public services and we will lower taxes instead of raising them, in order to make the ground more likeable for new investions from foreign companies to gain economic depth."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Working Class Hero View Post
The reason these people dodge their taxes and don't have faith in their political system is because it has been completely sold out from beneath them.
I agree with that. People follow their government. If their government is corrupt, people become corrupt. If not, they become decent, and so forth. I believe if we had a functional state at the moment, very few Greeks would do anything to damage it, and they do not deserve to be called Greeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Working Class Hero View Post
The current PM is a former member of the EU central bank who was pushed by the IMF into the position. That guy isn't there to do what's best for Greece; he's there to make sure the IMF gets as much cash as they can.
That is completely true. By saying that the governemt is corrupt, I don't mean the PM, but his cabinet. The PM is there to keep the policy he's instructed to keep, and the cabinet is by his side to reach into the federal money for their needs. Two months ago, just as we entered 2011, Dora Bakoyianni, a Greek politician "smuggled", like a modern Han Solo, 1.000.000 Euro, which belonged to the state, to an account she has in Switzerland, so they wouldn't be found. She was unlucky and this became known, but she wasn't prosecuted, and no charges were pressed against her. She continues to go to the Parliament every day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexrd View Post
No, it's actually the other way around.
I know your post is serious, but the matter-of-fact way you said it made me laugh pretty hard! It is just like you said, but the EU is a Union, as the name suggests, and in a union everybody must help each other. Today Germany and the "big" countries help us. Tomorrow, who knows what happens?

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