View Single Post
Old 04-09-2012, 04:49 AM   #17
JCarter426
Senior Member
 
JCarter426's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Look to your left.
Posts: 1,636
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
Firstly, yes, lack of explanation in the game does make it a plot hole (regardless what amounts of careless design and unfortunate happenstance may or may not be responsible). Take AotC as an example: if the two scenes where Obi-Wan takes the poison dart used by Jango and where he shows it to Dexter - thus establishing Kamino's connection to the assassination plot - were inexplicably not in the film, yet he just showed up at Kamino anyway later on, we would call that a plot hole, wouldn't we?

Better yet, if in KotOR I the player-character's true identity as Revan was to go completely unmentioned after the player leaves the Leviathan, even unto the end of the game - or if Carth's personal connection to Saul Karath was present in your conversations with him but went completely unmentioned on the Leviathan itself - would we not call that a plot hole?

The exact same thing is done with the Exile and Kreia's Force bond here. Past a certain point it is neither mentioned nor seen again.
It's not the same scenario at all because the explanation is already there. It's just not stated in as clear terms at the end of the game. Like a lot of things, it's left open to your interpretation. Your interpretation seems to be "there is no possible interpretation", but I don't agree with that. There are clues throughout the game.
Quote:
I'm glad that you're willing to admit that, but please in any future debates be courteous enough to not even mention the "Kreia = Liar" card, even conjecturally, unless you're willing to bring up a potential motive for her lying in the case of whatever we're talking about.
She has plenty of motive, but that's beside the point since this is simply one possible explanation, and I don't think it explains everything myself.

Quote:
What is this supposed to prove? So because the Exile from a certain point of view did one thing that was said to be sort of impossible, she can do another?
I'm just pointing out that no one in the game really seems to know how the Force works, and you're basing your argument on the fact that because the certain characters can't explain certain events means there is no possible explanation, when that's clearly not true.
Quote:
Furthermore, the Exile did not choose to turn from the Force. The Jedi explain that she involuntarily deafened herself to it to defend herself from what happened at Malachor; and Kreia sums it up (depending on your alignment, I think) as either "you were afraid" or "you had no choice".
Wait, wait, wait. The only line that suggests it was not a choice is the one you mentioned, which is only for the dark sided Exile anyway - and that version if the story is filled with so many plot holes that there's no point in arguing about it. In any case, it is repeatedly referred to as the Exile's choice, by everyone in the game - Kreia, the masters, Atris, even Sion. It may have been an unconscious choice, but it was still a choice.
Quote:
But everyone in the game after Kreia's betrayal still acts as though the bond is there and completely intact. The Exile's still like "****, if I don't go after her Atris'll kill her and I'll die"
Yes, but... well, Kreia lies. And yes, there is a motivation for it - as you said, she manipulates the Exile with this information.
Quote:
and if she kills Atris, Kreia still contacts her as strongly through their bond as ever, and tells her that she'll kill herself if the Exile doesn't follow her to Malachor.
No, this is incorrect. In the scene you are thinking of, this is just a projection of Kreia from Atris' Sith holocrons; Kreia specifically says she is not contacting the Exile through the bond. This might mean the bond is already weaker at this point.

But I don't see how this is relevant. The threat is only meant to get you to Malachor; by then, Kreia has you where she wants you. So even if killing Kreia will kill you, you don't really have a choice because she'll kill you if you don't anyway. So the Exile's survival is the only issue.

Second, at no point is it suggested that you'll die if you kill Kreia; the only concern is someone else killing Kreia and the Exile feeling Kreia's pain so strongly that it would be lethal. Note that it only happens once in the game (and once more in cut content) and it only happens when it does because the Exile is caught by surprise. Kreia explains that when they are in battle, their minds are more focused. So if they are battling each other, it shouldn't be any different. In short, Kreia threatens to kill herself if you won't come to Malachor to fight her; this very well might kill you. However, this doesn't prevent you from killing her yourself.
Quote:
Further, this entire viewpoint of yours hinges on the assumption that an actual trusting relationship with emotional, that is, feeling-based connections (hence the emphasis above) developed between the Exile and Kreia; but nowhere in the game is this actually a guarantee (not even in the canon timeline, as influence with Kreia is independent of alignment and I don't recall the Revan novel ever weighing in on the matter). It's just as easy for the Exile, from the beginning to the end, to stay away from her as much as possible during the journey, or to never do anything that raises influence with her, or to do all the things that piss her off (which, incidentally, include the majority of the game's light-sided choices) because they don't conform to her teachings - and the bond is still as there as ever, regardless of which path is taken; the same whether Kreia approves or disapproves of you. Isn't that the entire narrative point of the bond - that you, the Exile, are stuck with Kreia no matter how much you hate her or don't trust her? That you can't kill her or get rid of her, and that you have to find a way to get rid of the bond first?

You say that the bond is weakened/broken by the changing of the feelings that formed the bond - but this bond was never formed by feelings in the first place. It was formed unconsciously, unnaturally quickly, and in a completely non-standard manner while both of them were lying comatose in the Peragus Facility's sickbay.
First, that's not the entire basis of my viewpoint. The entire basis of my viewpoint is that there are several explanations for how the bond could have broken, based on hints that are present in the game. Just because it isn't clearly stated doesn't mean it isn't there.

Second, while that's an interesting point, this isn't something that's established in the game. We don't know that the bond doesn't act any differently from a normal bond - at least, what little we are told about how normal bonds work to begin with - apart from the fact that it was formed more quickly and appears stronger than normal bonds. Neither of these facts precludes it from behaving like a normal bond in any other respect - i.e. based on the feelings between the bonded individuals. The Exile's ability is unusual, not necessarily unnatural.

In any case, there are a lot of possible explanations that are present in the game. If you want to ignore them, that's your business.



Last edited by JCarter426; 04-09-2012 at 05:02 AM.
JCarter426 is offline   you may: quote & reply,