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Old 04-20-2013, 10:00 PM   #3
machievelli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Calo View Post
First, let me say that I read your entire post.
Thank you. I tend to repeat myself ad nauseum because people fail to read it all, merely give me a knee-jerk reply to one point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Calo View Post
Second, I get your concerns. I do. But when they found him he was bleeding out badly and was too weak to resist. If they had read him his rights, he'd either be so weak he might not get it; unfamiliar with the process as a non-native to the country; or doped out of his mind and unable to answer. If they read him his rights it will be after he is back down from his drug-induced state (this assumes that he will not simply expire from his wounds in the hospital, which is what I personally hope happens. Yes that would mean they'd get no information from him, but honestly I doubt he'll give anything up anyway when he's a professional killer at age 19)
I was not referring to him laying there injured and maybe drifitng in and out. I as referring to what will be done if and when he begins to recover. As for waiting until he recovers sufficiently without using that same drugged stupor as an additional way to get information, if you believe they will wait, then you have more trust than I have. If this were a regular case, a man shot up during a robbery say, they would wait, because too many people would be looking over their shoulders when the questioning began. But by invoking the exemption, that will not happen. Everything that is not later used in court will be sealed under Homeland Security cover. So the specifics of that interrogation will never see the light of public disclosure, at least not in our lifetimes.

As much as people complain about the treatment of the prisoners held at Guantanamo, we have used the exemption to reduce this man to an illegal combatant, just as those men in Cuba are. The rules about what is allowed in a POW interrogation are relaxed from a standard Police interrogation of a suspect. The treatment of an illegal combatant is undefined under international law because you can merely execute them upon capture if you wish. Using his testimony under a drug stupor would be perfectly legal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Calo View Post
In this case, also, the public safety exception clearly should apply. The guy was (is) a psychotic bomber, who carried out a plot to kill and maim as many people as he possibly could. He and his dirt bag, now deceased brother only managed to kill four people - including an eight year old boy - but they clearly planned to kill many more based on the suicide vest his corpse of a brother was wearing and the pipe bombs and the like they were hurling at the pursuing officers.
A given, true, though calling them professionals assumes training, and since he left his homeland at 9, I don't see that happening. What you fail to realize, is that the exemption has been used three times since it's inception, in each case the people it has been used on are all foreign nationals who proably do not even know the Miranda rights exist. It was not attempted in McVey's case after Oklahoma city for example, though the possiblity of catching anyone who helped him would have been a good reason to try it. But McVey as an American would have known about Miranda.

Before you point out that as an American McVey would have lawyered up, there is a little known fact about the 5th Amendment you might not know about. Once invoked, you have to say nothing. Oh if they offer you something, coffee, a smoke, you can answer that question. But if they ask anything connected to the case, you must merely repeat the litany 'I stand on my fifth amendment rights'. If you answer any questions, the law assumes you have waived your rights. As for a lawyer, do you honestly think the police can't 'forget' to call one until they make a slip?

Also, in the cases I mentioned above, the FBI claims to have gotten information from those interrogated, but think of it this way; let's go back to the start of the operations in Iraq, (I will not use that insulting code name), using the same rules the DOJ did use, and will use in this case. No imbedded reporters, they are going in using the rules we had during the first part of the Second World War, we tell you what's happening, and if you want to know the truth, read the history books in three decades time.

They find nothing, but is the Bush White House going to admit it? He lost a lot of credibility when all they found was some more advanced missile parts, but beyond that, no chemicals, no bioweapons, no nukes. So much credibility in fact that Collin Powell, (who was lied to) resigned rather than continue as Secretary of State.

Before you think I am being paranoid, during WWII, the US delivered mustard gas to the port of Bari in Occupied Italy for use against the Germans. The ship carrying it was sunk in a bombing raid, and the US government covered it up. http://rense.com/general83/gas.htm . It wasn't until 1984, over 40 years after the fact that documents finally came to light that the incident had occurred. Almost a hundred American sailors died, and almost 300 more were injured by the chemicals along with an untold number of Italian civilians, some of the survivors having health problems for years and were never even told they were exposed. In fact before then there was a mere dry recitation in history that a bombing raid had occurred 2 December 1943, and a listing of ships sunk.

Unless he dies before leaving the hospital, do you think for a second they will admit they got nothing? All we, got from DOJ in those other cases was 'we got information'. As to what might have been learned, those interrogations are still sealed. If they got anything, anyone arrested would have been dealt with the same way, except since they were arrested using that testimony, they will never see the light of day

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Calo View Post
As to your drug mule example: This one I disagree with. The Police usually use the drug mules to get to the traffickers. They usually give them some sort of deal, since in some cases they become drug mules simply because they feel they have no options.
All right, that example I will admit was a bit far fetched. But if McVey above had been arrested without all of the Media hoopla, do you think for a minute they wouldn't have just made him disappear?

The rights of everyone are based on how we treat prisoners, including those who were not born here.


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