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Old 08-11-2005, 09:22 AM   #1
Darth Havok
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Debate Bioware Vs. Obsidian, who makes KOTOR 3? If you could decide.

I love both KOTOR games, but I have a hard time chosing which one is better, since they both had their good points. Lets crack some skulls and decide who was better, shall we?


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Old 08-11-2005, 09:32 AM   #2
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Obsidian.

Don't really want another story spoon fed to me like Knights 1 was.
Avellone has a direction he'd like to see the story go, I wouldn't mind seeing where it ends up.
Hopefully LA got the point that you can't hack a story to bits & up release from all of the fan backlash.
*Imagines what TSL could have been with a realistic Dev time table...*

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Old 08-11-2005, 09:42 AM   #3
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I have to agree with Fiend on this one. I think Bioware had a more polished product, but with all the new features, and all the great charactors that came with TSL, I have to say that Obsidian did a very nice job. Despite all the glitches you run into in that game, the story was great, it felt like a constant plot climax, the entire way through, something interesting was always happening. Though, at the end of the game, I did feel as though much of the story was left out, it felt unfinished. What about that part a Mal 5 when Goto comes to the ship where the remote is, why is it you don't see him do anything in the end? The planet still explodes if you are light. you would think you would have at least seen him try something. It is a tough nut to crack, but in the end, I think Obsidians product was more in depth, and much more interesting. I do think, however, too much of the story was placed in the players hands. Not in the way that you had influence over the story, but more like, if you didn't talk to someone, you didnt know that part of the story, and It might have been important, thats where KOTOR 1 comes in, I mean, I really liked how the charactors would stop to talk to you, rather than you having to worry about pissing them off so much you never ever heard from them again, you know? As cool as the influence thing was, it could be a bitch sometimes.


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Old 08-11-2005, 12:22 PM   #4
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OE all the way. give them a good timetable, and i believe they would turn out one of the best RPG's of all time. not to mention it would be difficult to hand off your own story and have someone else attempt to finish it for you. things would definately get lost in translation.


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Old 08-11-2005, 12:28 PM   #5
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Ladies and Gentlemen, and children of all ages:
In this corner: KotOR I - Created by BioWare from the ground up. Every small detail created by BioWare.

And in the other corner: KotOR II - Base engine created by BioWare, base clothes created by BioWare. Story and small additions created by Obsidian.

BioWare wins by default!!!

KotOR I didn't need new features, for it was the first of its kind. KotOR I had a complete and comprehensive story. Side quests in KotOR I were not necessary for the main story to be played. KotOR I just kicked but!!!



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Old 08-11-2005, 12:31 PM   #6
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Ultimately I don't really care who does it, so long as we end up with a great game.

But, I will admit that I think BioWare would be great at it. While really straight forward, their game was all shinny and clean. When I was done with the game, I never thought back on what could have made it better since they got it right the first time. It also did have that great epic feel to it as well. Thinking about them using everything up to this point and then continuing it, well it makes me happy.


"Some see how things are and ask, 'Why?' I dream of things that have never been and ask, 'Why not?'" - Robert F. Kennedy



In my mind's eye, 3P0.
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Old 08-11-2005, 12:33 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mira Dona
Ultimately I don't really care who does it, so long as we end up with a great game.

But, I will admit that I think BioWare would be great at it. While really straight forward, their game was all shinny and clean. When I was done with the game, I never thought back on what could have made it better since they got it right the first time. It also did have that great epic feel to it as well. Thinking about them using everything up to this point and then continuing it, well it makes me happy.
Yes! Listen to Mira!



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Old 08-11-2005, 01:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mira Dona
But, I will admit that I think BioWare would be great at it. While really straight forward, their game was all shinny and clean. When I was done with the game, I never thought back on what could have made it better since they got it right the first time.
funny you should mention that whenever it took Bioware THREE patches to finally get Kotor I as polished as it is. and considering the time span between the Xbox version and the PC version, i would hardly consider the PC version to be a 'polished' game on release. heck, a lot of reviews docked the PC version points because of all the bugs.
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Originally Posted by MacLeodCorp
KotOR I - Created by BioWare from the ground up. Every small detail created by BioWare.
well, not exactly. remember that Kotor I was built directly from the NWN engine. even with the consideration that Bioware developed the NWN engine, Bioware still borrowed from an existing engine to create the game, just as OE did with TSL.


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Old 08-11-2005, 01:29 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by stingerhs
funny you should mention that whenever it took Bioware THREE patches to finally get Kotor I as polished as it is.
And in that same spirit, just many patches has it taken Obsidian in order to achieve the same effect?


Quote:
and considering the time span between the Xbox version and the PC version, i would hardly consider the PC version to be a 'polished' game on release. heck, a lot of reviews docked the PC version points because of all the bugs.
I only got both games about. . . . 2 months ago, so I really have no frame of refference for the Xbox to PC delay.



Listen, I love both games very much. But KOTOR1 was, for me, the better game with a wonderful story and superior characters.


"Some see how things are and ask, 'Why?' I dream of things that have never been and ask, 'Why not?'" - Robert F. Kennedy



In my mind's eye, 3P0.

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Old 08-11-2005, 03:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mira Dona
And in that same spirit, just many patches has it taken Obsidian in order to achieve the same effect?

Listen, I love both games very much. But KOTOR1 was, for me, the better game with a wonderful story and superior characters.
Yes! I 100% agree! Listen to Mira! You go Lady!

Obsidian made one patch, which didn't fix a damn thing. Therefore, BioWare's attention to pleasing the customer is supperior. Their story is epic and much more enjoyable. There is no way in hell they are considered 50/50. I too enjoyed KotOR II, but I 100% prefered the fun, epic story, and the premise of KotOR I.



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Old 08-11-2005, 03:30 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by MacLeodCorp
Yes! I 100% agree! Listen to Mira! You go girl!

Thanks!

Minor correction though, I'm not a girl :P


"Some see how things are and ask, 'Why?' I dream of things that have never been and ask, 'Why not?'" - Robert F. Kennedy



In my mind's eye, 3P0.
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Old 08-11-2005, 10:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mira Dona
And in that same spirit, just many patches has it taken Obsidian in order to achieve the same effect?
so far, just one. hate to break it to you, but Kotor I was hardly playable on my computer until the last patch because of a memory leak the game had on my system, which made me have to restart my entire machine every hour or so to keep playing. that doesn't exactly sound like polish IMO.

the point is that Bioware didn't release a polished game at first, and the same can be said about Obsidian. but an even larger point was that Bioware had plenty of time to get things done. Obsidian, on the other hand, did not have enough time to make things polished before the release. and given how much better the story could have been for TSL if Obsidian was given enough time, my vote definately lies with Obsidian.


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Old 08-12-2005, 12:25 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by stingerhs
so far, just one. hate to break it to you, but Kotor I was hardly playable on my computer until the last patch because of a memory leak the game had on my system, which made me have to restart my entire machine every hour or so to keep playing. that doesn't exactly sound like polish IMO.
Then perhaps you should have issue with your computer?

In either event, they made a patch that DID fix that as opposed to creating more problems, am I correct?


Quote:
the point is that Bioware didn't release a polished game at first, and the same can be said about Obsidian. but an even larger point was that Bioware had plenty of time to get things done. Obsidian, on the other hand, did not have enough time to make things polished before the release. and given how much better the story could have been for TSL if Obsidian was given enough time
I've noticed that virtually every PC game ends up needing a patch at one point or another, but I see that as a benefit to PC and MAC games rather than an annoyance. Cause if the game had a few flaws, there is a still a chance to make the game better.

"If" and "could have" doesn't do much in the face of "what is". Had Obsidian more time, I have no doubt that their game would have surpassed the original, but the fact as I see it is that they didn't have enough time and the sequel didn't surpass the original.

Quote:
my vote definately lies with Obsidian.
And you know what? All the power to you!

As I said before, I really don't care who makes it so long as its good


"Some see how things are and ask, 'Why?' I dream of things that have never been and ask, 'Why not?'" - Robert F. Kennedy



In my mind's eye, 3P0.
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:48 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mira Dona
Ultimately I don't really care who does it, so long as we end up with a great game.

But, I will admit that I think BioWare would be great at it. While really straight forward, their game was all shinny and clean. When I was done with the game, I never thought back on what could have made it better since they got it right the first time. It also did have that great epic feel to it as well. Thinking about them using everything up to this point and then continuing it, well it makes me happy.
*agrees*

The only thing I'd like to add is that BioWare hasn't had a chance to update to it's original. All in all, although Obsidian did a brilliant job of recapping all of the nifty features and unique setup of the first, it felt to me that they just patched KotOR up with a new storyline and a bit more character customization.

I believe BioWare, if given a chance, could work along with Avellone to create an excellent storyline; but at the same time, give the whole game a fresh new look with better, optimized gameplay improvements instead of the same old stuff being re-used.
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Old 08-11-2005, 01:58 PM   #15
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Obsidian. Their story is deeper, and given a better planning schedule and more polish time, their game would have surpassed BioWare's by a long shot.

Put it this way, it's about 50/50 when people talk about which one was better, yet Obsidian's wasn't even near it's full potential due to time constraints. If they can match BioWare with a half complete game, how much better would they be with a complete game.

Also, it's Obsidian's writers (mainly Chris A.) who thought up the ending of TSL, so they'd be the best ones to finish what they started since they knew where they were going with it.
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Old 08-11-2005, 03:23 PM   #16
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[x] Obsidian for their great story-telling and gameplay features added in TSL, though I have some worries concerning timetable and support...
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Old 08-11-2005, 04:04 PM   #17
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Old 08-11-2005, 04:17 PM   #18
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Sorry! Lady Mira!
In other words, I'm a guy!

Sorry about the confusion there. . .


"Some see how things are and ask, 'Why?' I dream of things that have never been and ask, 'Why not?'" - Robert F. Kennedy



In my mind's eye, 3P0.
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Old 08-11-2005, 04:23 PM   #19
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? Ah Sorry Man! ?
There are so many questions that come to mind..
Lol.....



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Old 08-11-2005, 04:43 PM   #20
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? Ah Sorry Man! ?
There are so many questions that come to mind..
Lol.....

Haha, nah don't worry about it it's cool. And certainly not the first time either, at least nobody was hitting on me!

Anyway, back to the topic. . .


"Some see how things are and ask, 'Why?' I dream of things that have never been and ask, 'Why not?'" - Robert F. Kennedy



In my mind's eye, 3P0.
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Old 08-11-2005, 05:13 PM   #21
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Bioware vs Obsidian... That is a tough one. On one hand, Obsidian would be better at finishing their own story, but Bioware is definately overall a better developer. I know people give props to Obsidian for making all the new features, but Bioware would have had new features on a sequal game also; you can't have new features on the first game in a series. So I say Bioware because they can still include the new features and then some that Obsidian did, and I think they can make a better story.


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Old 08-11-2005, 06:19 PM   #22
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^^ I half-agree with DarthMoeller. Obsidian is given a great amount of praise for the features they included in TSL, but it is entirely plausible that Bioware could have come up with similarly entertaining features had they been given another crack at KOTOR. I don't believe influence, better-looking robes, training apprentices etc. would necessarily have been beyond Bioware, considering the success they had in producing the great KOTOR 1. Ppl shouldn't be so hasty in deciding that Obsidian is a better developer than Bioware.

But... in terms of who should do KOTOR 3, regardless of who actually is the better developer - I think that task has to lie with Obsidian, purely for the sake of story cohesion. They seem to have had some idea of where KOTOR was going to go after TSL, and I think they should continue their story. If Bioware was back in charge, they may find themselves disagreeing with what Obsidian had put before them in TSL and 'force' their own story for KOTOR 3 within the established framework of TSL, which could make for a greater mess than Malachor 5. Obsidian, on the other hand, may create a better flow.

Also, much of the criticism levelled at Obsidian is not necessarily their fault, but rather LucasArts'.


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Old 08-11-2005, 06:29 PM   #23
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i would say Bioware... doesn't matter about the patches, at least they finally got it...
can't say the same for OE... they were supposed to come out with two patches for sure, only one was released and it was still very buggy... as for the second one, where is it? not to mention the story of k2 was so incoherent and like a pumas stone, full of holes and hard to follow. And the cut scenes, some of them are just way unnecessary, like Goto zapping the driod ball in the engine room and destroying it, then the next thing you see it's floating around in the cargo bay!?! what's up with that? However, i do admit that OE did bring a few cool new features to the game, weapon switching for one example... But if i could choose which game maker to build k3, i would go with Bioware, they could bring the same new features that OE did to the game and make a better, more cohesive story and more stable game.


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Old 08-11-2005, 06:48 PM   #24
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Obsidian definetly. i absolutely loved KOTOR 2 even more then KOTOR 1..actually no well..if it was't for bastillia(sp)? They rushed Obsidian to make a poopload of money on christmas. by releaseing KOTOR 2 and i believe if it waited atleast another month or two it could have rivaled KOTOR 1 Even the Obsidian devs asked to release and fix the uncut content but nooo!..anyways my choice would be Obsidian as you can see
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Old 08-11-2005, 09:19 PM   #25
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BIOWARE!

No doubt about it.
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Old 08-12-2005, 01:18 AM   #26
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MY GOD WHO CARES WHO MAKES IT I JUST WANTS TO PLAY IT =)=)
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Old 08-12-2005, 04:13 AM   #27
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Hi to all, just thought of giving out my opinion on this and this is: BIOWARE!! Fair and square. It is one thing making a game and quite another to just enhance and polish it. Bioware did an extremely good job of it first time out and Obsidian just did not screw up (which is not an easy thing to do mind you and all credit to them for it, because I've seen sequels to screw up big time). But, my guess is Bioware should have been given the chance to improve on their creation by awarding to them the sequel, too. I would love to find out what could they have come up with...., the only way of finding that out is ... give them the third sequel!!!!
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Old 08-12-2005, 04:46 AM   #28
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Pafan, BW turned down TSL because they were focusing on Jade Empire. They recommended Obsidian because many of their employees came from BW (originally).

LIAYD, careful there. You know how the naysayers hate that whole "voice of reason" thing
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Old 08-12-2005, 08:44 AM   #29
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Bioware definatly had the beter rounded storyline, thought the game play from Obsidian was beter (though I agree that Bioware would have come up with something similar).

Obsidian have only releases oe patch to my knowledge, thought I never got or heard as many weird glitches in KOTOR I as TSL, If you read the obsidian forums there was a thread on these glithes including someone who had a whole army of Bao-Dors and they just kept multiplying.

So Bioware would get my vote mainly on beter storyline.
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:06 AM   #30
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As I recall out of the box my KOTOR 1 (PC version) failed to get past the fighter game at the end of Taris until I managed to get the 1.03 patch. KOTOR II worked out of the box clear to the end. If Bioware was willing, they could do a very solid release for Kotor 3, but they have been saying on their boards that they are currently very committed to their own Intellectual properties, such as Jade Empire and Dragon Age. They have basicly said they have no interst in doing another Starwars game for the forseeable future.

I liked several of the new features added to Kotor 2 such as the weapon switching and the new jedi robes. I also enjoyed the story, though I did believe the last 1/3 could have used 2 or 3 months more developement. I suspect it would have been a better game if the February release date had been kept rather than rushing it to get a Christmas release. So realisticly Obisidian is the only real option of the two.
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:23 AM   #31
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I'd like to see OE do it as they need the chance to finish what they started in K2. If they were given a more realistic timetable they could do the better job.
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:24 AM   #32
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I'd probably prefer Bioware, but I wouldn't have a problem if Obsidian got the contract...

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Old 08-13-2005, 03:30 PM   #33
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why not both developers create the game in a joint effort
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Old 08-13-2005, 03:48 PM   #34
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I like Bioware just because I feel that the side stories and quests were not nearly as good in Kotor 2 as in Kotor 1.
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Old 08-13-2005, 06:46 PM   #35
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BioWare all the way. But I don't think they would do it; too busy with Dragon Age.

BioWare is without any doubt one of the best RPG-making company out there. Bringing DnD to the PC the way they did is no small feat. While NeverWinter was slightly inferior to Baldur's Gate I and II, I still think they're on the right track. Dragon Age looks especially great.

Obsidian/Black Isle's games were never as good as BioWare's, in my opinion. And I was quite disappointed with TSL myself.


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Old 08-13-2005, 06:52 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth54
Obsidian/Black Isle's games were never as good as BioWare's, in my opinion. And I was quite disappointed with TSL myself.
You just said BG was better than NWN.

BTW, I agree with that statement (that BG is better). But in the long run Bioware is a better developer.


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Old 08-13-2005, 07:08 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthMoeller
You just said BG was better than NWN.

BTW, I agree with that statement (that BG is better). But in the long run Bioware is a better developer.
Baldur's Gate was developed by BioWare, but published by Black Isle.


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Old 08-13-2005, 07:15 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth54
Baldur's Gate was developed by BioWare, but published by Black Isle.
Oops. It seems you are right. I guess I shouldn't have always skipped the company logos scenes when you start the game...


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Old 08-13-2005, 07:41 PM   #39
Lettuce
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I would like to see Bioware make the game but that doesnt seem likely. Bioware would have given us a finished game they would have never tried to do more than they could handle in the time given to them. But that doesnt really matter because it seems Bioware is going to be focused on its own IPs for the next few years.


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Old 08-13-2005, 08:50 PM   #40
DarthMuffin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lettuce
I would like to see Bioware make the game but that doesnt seem likely. Bioware would have given us a finished game they would have never tried to do more than they could handle in the time given to them. But that doesnt really matter because it seems Bioware is going to be focused on its own IPs for the next few years.
Well, KotOR I was a bit rushed in the later parts (starforge).

But it's nothing like TSL, where they even "forgot" to remove the map pings of the cut areas, and the lack of any kind of ending.

Anyway, it's more LA's fault. They might have decided at the last minute that they wanted the game out sooner, and Obsidian didn't have time to finish things up. However, I do remember reading an interview last summer with an Obsidian employee saying that the game was basically finished, and that they were testing stuff. We will probably never know what truly happened.

Of course they had absolutely no excuse for not fixing the map pings and bugs such as with force speed and force aura for the PC version which came about a month later.


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