lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: How Does Darth Vader use the Force...
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 10-25-2005, 08:00 PM   #1
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,298
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Post How Does Darth Vader use the Force...

... if he doesn't have hands?


Discuss.


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-25-2005, 08:13 PM   #2
TK-8252
Get Cloned.
 
TK-8252's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,850
You don't need hands. You use your mind.

Except for Sith lightning. For that you need hands (and arms help too ).
TK-8252 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-25-2005, 08:25 PM   #3
Jeff
Rating: Awesome
 
Jeff's Avatar
 
Status: Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 8,427
Current Game: SWTOR
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Notable contributor LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
You don't need hands. You use your mind.

Except for Sith lightning. For that you need hands (and arms help too ).
Yeah, what he said.

Vader shows you don't need hands to use the Force when he chokes that officer when he's talking to him through the video in ESB. He just does the choking hand action for effect.


Follow me on Twitter
Follow StarWarsMMO.net on Twitter | Like us on Facebook
Jeff is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-25-2005, 08:21 PM   #4
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
His arms are made of flesh from the padawans he slaughtered! :O


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-26-2005, 01:29 AM   #5
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,298
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Sith
His arms are made of flesh from the padawans he slaughtered! :O
Killer cool, this idea will be forwarded to Lucas... (*hey, wait a minute!*)


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-26-2005, 05:41 AM   #6
Sabretooth
鬼龍院皐月
 
Sabretooth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 9,361
The force is all around you, so you don't need to bother making kung-fu poses and such. You just have to think it's happening and it happens. Since it's a movie and a half-action movie at that, you need to have cool poses and fights.

On the lighning topic, I know a secret place from where men can shoot lightning...
*stupid evil laugh*


Sabretooth is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-26-2005, 08:31 AM   #7
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,298
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
FREEEEEDDOOOOOM!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist (again).


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-28-2005, 11:24 AM   #8
RobQel-Droma
Blah
 
RobQel-Droma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Up yours. X0
Posts: 2,216
Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
As with them all, you don't really need hands. I think it was just something that Lucas made so it would seem better by doing the hand actions. I guess that the only reason that he can't use force lightning is that his arms are metal, and I don't think it would go well shooting thousands of volts through them . But as for everything else, it isn't like shooting something like lightning through yourself at them, it is using the force to cause something to happen to them. Don't quite know how to describe it, but I hope you understand me.
RobQel-Droma is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-29-2005, 06:01 AM   #9
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,298
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Isn't metal a good conductor of electricity? Then again the materials science of Star Wars is obviously far advanced beyond our's...


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-29-2005, 11:06 AM   #10
Astrotoy7
A Face from The Past
 
Astrotoy7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 10,284
Notable contributor Helpful! Folder extraordinaire LFN Staff Member 
Im with Chase, Im utterly astounded that you have asked this Kurgan.....

There are 3 key quotes from the films that tell you quite clearly what Lucas' take on the force is...

*Obi Wan in ANH "The force is an energy field...etc"
*Yoda in ESB - the "not this crude matter/size matters not" speech
*Qui Gon in TPM - the whole midichlorians deal

However, even when the body is gone(and thus ending the symbiosis ith the midichlorians), the films show us jedi still can have a presence in the force ie. obi wan, yoda, anakin, qui gon. Thus, the force is more than just this physical symbiosis ??

mtfbwya


Asinus asinum fricat
Astrotoy7 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-29-2005, 12:08 PM   #11
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,298
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
And yet, people say Vader can't use lightning because of his artificial hands, and that he's less powerful because he's cybernetic. So don't be too shocked.


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-29-2005, 01:51 PM   #12
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
I still like my padawan flesh idea.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-29-2005, 02:33 PM   #13
RobQel-Droma
Blah
 
RobQel-Droma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Up yours. X0
Posts: 2,216
Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
I don't think that there was ever a official explanation as to why Vader could use the force but no lightning due to no hands.
RobQel-Droma is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-29-2005, 02:36 PM   #14
TK-8252
Get Cloned.
 
TK-8252's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,850
From the RotS visual dictionary:

"As a result of having artificial arms, Darth Vader will never be able to conjure Sith lightning - nor be invulnerable to it."
TK-8252 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-06-2005, 04:27 AM   #15
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,298
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
From the RotS visual dictionary:

"As a result of having artificial arms, Darth Vader will never be able to conjure Sith lightning - nor be invulnerable to it."
Which explains nothing, based on what you all have said, hence my question!

So for some reason you need hands to use lightning. I wonder why?

As for "being invulnerable to it" part that's an obvious load of BS. He can clearly block energy (Han's blaster bolts) with his cybernetic hands, and he could easily block the lightning with his saber like Obi-Wan and Mace Windu did.


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-06-2005, 03:11 PM   #16
TK-8252
Get Cloned.
 
TK-8252's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So for some reason you need hands to use lightning. I wonder why?
Because the lightning is actually coming out of your fingers? I think you need hands in order to have fingers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
As for "being invulnerable to it" part that's an obvious load of BS.
In RotJ he gets zapped with Palp's lightning, so apparently it's not BS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
and he could easily block the lightning with his saber like Obi-Wan and Mace Windu did.
And what if he doesn't have his lightsaber?
TK-8252 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-06-2005, 08:10 PM   #17
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,298
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Because the lightning is actually coming out of your fingers? I think you need hands in order to have fingers!
And why can't it actually come out of your artificial fingers? What if you lop off a Jedi's fingers, can he no longer throw lightning, if he has a palm? How many fingers are needed to toss lightning bolts?

Would an alien Jedi that doesn't have fingers be unable to use Force Lightning?

If you can toss force energy in the form of push or pull without hands, I don't see why can't do the same with lightning. Even when Yoda "absorbs" lightning it appears he's projecting a little energy shield thingy in front of his palm.


Quote:
In RotJ he gets zapped with Palp's lightning, so apparently it's not BS.
He gets zapped by Dooku's (presumably weaker) lightning in AOTC, with two good hands and not a cybernetic part on him.

Also Mace Windu deflects all of Palpatine's lightning attacks until Anakin cuts off his hand, then he gets zapped. So nothing conclusive that way.

Quote:
And what if he doesn't have his lightsaber?
I say then he could block it with his hand, just like he blocked Han's blaster shots. The only reason he didn't block the lightning Palpatine was throwing at him "had his hands full" putting the squeeze on him and preparing to throw him over the edge.

I realize this goes against the "official" explanation, but honestly, their excuse makes no logical sense, it's just stated.


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-06-2005, 08:56 PM   #18
TK-8252
Get Cloned.
 
TK-8252's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
And why can't it actually come out of your artificial fingers? What if you lop off a Jedi's fingers, can he no longer throw lightning, if he has a palm? How many fingers are needed to toss lightning bolts?
Because you need midichlorians?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Would an alien Jedi that doesn't have fingers be unable to use Force Lightning?
I'd assume so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
If you can toss force energy in the form of push or pull without hands, I don't see why can't do the same with lightning. Even when Yoda "absorbs" lightning it appears he's projecting a little energy shield thingy in front of his palm.
Where do you suggest the lightning comes out of? Unlike pushing, pulling, etc., lightning is actually created, not just manipulated. So where does it come out of if not your fingers?

And Yoda absorbs the lightning by using his hand. If Yoda didn't have hands, he couldn't block it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
He gets zapped by Dooku's (presumably weaker) lightning in AOTC, with two good hands and not a cybernetic part on him.
Of course, he wasn't on guard. Even if Vader was on guard, he still couldn't block it without his lightsaber. Only midichlorians can block the Force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I say then he could block it with his hand, just like he blocked Han's blaster shots. The only reason he didn't block the lightning Palpatine was throwing at him "had his hands full" putting the squeeze on him and preparing to throw him over the edge.
Blaster shots aren't Force energy. They're laser bolts.
TK-8252 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-07-2005, 12:34 AM   #19
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
As for "being invulnerable to it" part that's an obvious load of BS. He can clearly block energy (Han's blaster bolts) with his cybernetic hands, and he could easily block the lightning with his saber like Obi-Wan and Mace Windu did.
So... you never saw RotJ it seems. The lightning destroyed his life support system, and the thing about him not being able to use force lightning because of his arms is because the energy is projected from the flesh.

Metal + high voltage of electricity = retardation on ice.

The blaster blocking "with his hand" was for show. He's merely creating a barrier using the force. He could technically do the same for lightning, but that doesn't mean he's invulnerable to it, just means he knows how to keep it from messing him up. But the thing is he sacrifices himself to destroy Palpatine and save his son, redeeming himself and destroying the Sith.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-07-2005, 12:55 AM   #20
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,298
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Sith
So... you never saw RotJ it seems. The lightning destroyed his life support system, and the thing about him not being able to use force lightning because of his arms is because the energy is projected from the flesh.
So then a person with no hands can't use the Force. Thank you for playing.


Quote:
Metal + high voltage of electricity = retardation on ice.
What makes you think Vader's armor can't resist electricity? And before you go "well duh, 'cause he died" realize that Vader is not encased from head to toe in metal, most of his suit appears to be some kind of cloth. But could he use his armor gauntlets to block lightning? I don't see why not. After all, another part of his armor, his should pad, resisted Luke's lightsaber. That proves it's stronger than say, Super Battledroid armor.

Quote:
The blaster blocking "with his hand" was for show. He's merely creating a barrier using the force.
Is Yoda blocking lightning "with his hand" also for show?

Why couldn't Yoda block the lightning with his a$$? (I mean for argument's sake)

Quote:
He could technically do the same for lightning, but that doesn't mean he's invulnerable to it,
I agree. The quote is stupid to use the term "invulnerable." Who is "invulnerable"? Somebody encased in a force field would be "invulnerable" to a lightning attack, but the thing is, "invulnerable" implies something without limit. If you could keep generating energy for a long long period of time, perhaps the shield would eventually be drained and then you'd be vulnerable. Or perhaps a sufficiently powerful charge could drain the shield more quickly. Who knows. Did they say "Mace Windu would never be invulnerable to Lightning" or "Yoda would never be invulnerable to Lightning"? Clearly neither of them were, despite their ability to block it they both were severally zapped.

Quote:
just means he knows how to keep it from messing him up. But the thing is he sacrifices himself to destroy Palpatine and save his son, redeeming himself and destroying the Sith.
No argument there. Rather the argument is being made that something about Vader prevents him from using or blocking Force lightning. I don't buy that excuse.

To use another example, most Jedi are perfectly capable of blocking blaster bolts. They can block them all day long, we've seen it. And yet, these same Jedi can also be killed by blaster bolts. How do we explain that?

Yoda is capable of blocking lightning. But he's also capable of being zapped. Ditto with Mace Windu. So if Vader can be mortally wounded by Lightning, that doesn't mean he is incapable of blocking it, or even using it himself. I would attribute his lack of use of the power as lack of knowledge, not something in his physical structure that prevents it.


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-07-2005, 01:24 AM   #21
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So then a person with no hands can't use the Force. Thank you for playing.
Learn to read.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
What makes you think Vader's armor can't resist electricity?
Because the movie shows as much. And my metal + electricity thing is in regards to his arms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Is Yoda blocking lightning "with his hand" also for show?
Pretty much, yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Why couldn't Yoda block the lightning with his a$$? (I mean for argument's sake)
Because that's retarded for many reasons and you should know better than to ask such a stupid question.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
To use another example, most Jedi are perfectly capable of blocking blaster bolts. They can block them all day long, we've seen it. And yet, these same Jedi can also be killed by blaster bolts. How do we explain that?
Because using the force requires concentration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Yoda is capable of blocking lightning. But he's also capable of being zapped. Ditto with Mace Windu.
Uh.. okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So if Vader can be mortally wounded by Lightning, that doesn't mean he is incapable of blocking it,
No one said he can't block it, only that he can't use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
or even using it himself. I would attribute his lack of use of the power as lack of knowledge, not something in his physical structure that prevents it.
I still buy the scientific fact that metal arms projecting electricity = jackass stunt. It's like putting foil in the microwave.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-29-2005, 03:46 PM   #22
Jeff
Rating: Awesome
 
Jeff's Avatar
 
Status: Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 8,427
Current Game: SWTOR
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Notable contributor LFN Staff Member 
^

That's probably why the lightning hurt him so much in RotJ. It's possible anyway.


Follow me on Twitter
Follow StarWarsMMO.net on Twitter | Like us on Facebook
Jeff is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-03-2005, 07:07 PM   #23
The Source
Rest In Peace
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,304
Contest winner - Modding 
My Theory:
Every time Vader uses the Force, to do some serious damage, his emotions usually drive the intensity of his power. Therefore, one could conclude that all he needs is hate or pain.
The Source is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-04-2005, 05:05 PM   #24
Brottor
Rookie
 
Brottor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 15
I have never heard officially that his artificial arms keep him from using force lightning, but I have always liked and excepted that explanation. Most other aspects of the force use the mind alone. I don't think Vadar lost the ability to do anything other than that. Just makes sense to me.
Brottor is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-06-2005, 06:21 AM   #25
T10
Rookie
 
T10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 163
Why does no-one just wear yellow rubber gloves? It would make life so much simpler.


INSERT_USELESS_INFORMATION_HERE>
T10 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-06-2005, 06:44 AM   #26
Sabretooth
鬼龍院皐月
 
Sabretooth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 9,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by T10
Why does no-one just wear yellow rubber gloves? It would make life so much simpler.
Star Wars can use projectile weaponry too, which is faster and more powerful, but what the heck? It's all for the coolness.


Sabretooth is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-07-2005, 12:53 AM   #27
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
The motions were generally done to convey what was being done to the audience.
Lightning is the only force power that requires a hand gesture because it requires direction and production.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-07-2005, 12:56 AM   #28
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,298
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Sith
The motions were generally done to convey what was being done to the audience.
Lightning is the only force power that requires a hand gesture because it requires direction and production.
And other Force powers don't?


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-07-2005, 01:25 AM   #29
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
And other Force powers don't?
Correct, all you need for the other powers is mind. Lightning requires physical actions.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-07-2005, 02:01 AM   #30
Sabretooth
鬼龍院皐月
 
Sabretooth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 9,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Sith
Correct, all you need for the other powers is mind. Lightning requires physical actions.
Yeah, but can't you think of lightning originating from somewhere else. I mean, can't you think it and lightning shoots in from the window, or better yet, the target just gets instantly electrocuted, like Force Choke + Lightning.


Sabretooth is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-12-2005, 03:24 PM   #31
JerAir
 
JerAir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sitting in front of my computer
Posts: 211
I'm too lazy to read everything everyone has said so far, but I have played the RotS DS game and at the end it shows Vader using lightning-without his hands, just coming out of his torso and extremities. It was the part when he found hout he'd killed Padme, where in the movie, he crushes everything.

On a sidenote, dunno if this has been said before, Vader must have lost a whole lot of midichlorians when his extremities were chopped off by Obi at Mustafar. He must have had less than 50% the midichlorians he had before his arm was chopped off by Dooku.

I have read the RotS book, and it said the suit breathed and pretty much talked for Vader, but in RotJ, he is able to speak a little to Luke and breathe for a short time after his suit gets practically destroyed by Palp's lightning.

In my opinion, Vader would have owned Luke if he wasn't so cocky to try to kill Obi when Obi had the high ground. Obi might have died, Vader would have more midichlorians, and therefore, with Luke's crash course on the force and lightsaber handling, Vader would have put Luke to shame and killed him easily- but of course, he was holding back a little because Luke was his son. He would not have been pinned and had his hand chopped off by Luke in RotJ if he never tried to kill Obi- even when Obi had the advantage, and he would never had to wear that suit, and therefore, again, would not have lost so many midichlorians
JerAir is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-12-2005, 04:01 PM   #32
MachineCult
Vincit Amor Patria
 
MachineCult's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Disneyland?
Posts: 2,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerAir
...dunno if this has been said before, Vader must have lost a whole lot of midichlorians when his extremities were chopped off by Obi at Mustafar. He must have had less than 50% the midichlorians he had before his arm was chopped off by Dooku.
As it was said in TPM, Anakins midichlorian count was off the charts, higher than Yodas.
and I think you have the whole midichlorian thing wrong, thats not really how it works, what you are saying is like saying if you get a bad cut and loose some blood you'll never have the same amount ever again.

The loss of a limb (or all of them) wouldn't mean the permanent reduction of the number of midichlorians in a body.



"For where ever there is a n00b, there is MachineCult to make him cry and cringe."
- Halo_92

MachineCult is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-12-2005, 09:48 PM   #33
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,298
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Good point. If midicholorians are inside your cells, then they would have to be reproducing themselves. Countless cells in your body die off each day, especially in your blood, but they are constantly being replaced (if they're not, you're in serious trouble!). So midichlorians inside your cells must also be reproducing.

One could easily argue that the midichlorians "left" inside his body just balanced things out and might be even more concentrated than before. After all, his blood doesn't need to circulate to those missing limbs anymore...

And if it were really somehow essential to have midi-blood everywhere you needed to use the Force, he could have had artificial veins circulating blood throug his cybernetic parts too (even though it wouldn't need to do anything, it would just be "there").

One theory on the "Oh, Vader is not as powerful as he could have been" thing is that perhaps you could see it this way... Yoda is an old cripple (he hobbles around with a cane), like Palpatine is. They both use the Force to "envigorate" their physical bodies so they can flip around or do other features that old men typically can't do without seriously hurting themselves. Heck, even Dooku is played by an actor who can't really do any of the heavy physical stuff you see him doing in the movie, so you might as well say he's using the Force to support his physical frame.

So if you think about the Force power available to each user (and I know this makes it sound very much like a video game but bear with me), some of this already has to be spent on keeping your body in shape, with less left over for the fancy powers and precognition for your sword fight. So a "younger" more physically fit Jedi/Sith would have an advantage in a battle with an equally power in the Force aged Jedi/Sith. Of course you could say the elder one generally would have gained more knowledge of the Force through experience, but again, they have to use more force to augment their frail body, which could otherwise be used for other things.

If we take the point of view that Vader's cybernetic parts are INFERIOR to biological counterparts, then we could say that Vader IS indeed a cripple. His cybernetic parts are inferior, and he uses the Force to "augment" them so he can do all his stuff. Without them he'd be bobbing around like C3PO. Mobile sure, but not combat worthy.

On the other hand, this doesn't quite jibe with what we've seen, because we KNOW they are capable in the SW universe of making robotic parts that are equal or even superior to biological ones (see General Grievous for the most dramatic example). Then again, perhaps that level of sophistication requires more "intrusive" surgery into the brain and spine than Vader wanted. After all he's more fleshy than Grievous and we don't see any electrodes sticking out of his head when Luke takes off his mask. So perhaps he didn't go for the extra stuff, and as a result he still had to compensate for his inferior tech in some way.

Now another possible take on this, relating to the above, may be something few agree with. I am not saying this is OBJECTIVELY RIGHT but Lucas seems to be continually promoting the idea in his movies that flesh and spirit is greater than technology. He's said that technology won't save us, he has the Kaminoeans boasting of clones being superior to droids. He makes the droids into comic relief, and he has Vader's "more machine now than man" being symptomatic of his fall and corruption. Lucas seems to view being robotic as being inferior. So perhaps in Lucas-Logic (invented a new term, woo!) the reason Vader is weaker is because he's become less "human."

He may feel that no matter how advanced, "droids" are always inferior to biologicals, so cybernetic parts are more a hindrance than a help.

In the case of Vader's death though, it's clear that the damage to his system is contributing to his death, not just the damage to his flesh. He seems to be paralyzed, implying that the robot suit was what kept him mobile below the neck. Could he have used the Force to animate his body (after all he used the Force before to keep himself alive so long on Mustafar, and both Jedi should have been killed by the heat near the start of their duel)? Perhaps, but apparently after all that fighting he just didn't have the strength anymore.


Another possible interpretation of the whole "Vader was not as powerful as he could have been" could be totally unrelated to his cybernetic suit. It could be that had he continued his career as a Jedi, rather than being so impatient, and gotten onto the Council of Masters and learned, etc (remember they said he was the youngest ever on the Council) he could have been a lot better. Instead he quit the Jedi and joined the Sith, and when the Jedi died, their teachings were effectively lost. He'd only have access to their writings (assuming he could still get to them and they weren't all destroyed) and to what Palpatine chose to reveal to him (and granting Palpy's knowledge of the Plagueis legend, he might not have felt like sharing everything, even with his trusted apprentice).

And perhaps if Anakin HAD been born in the Republic and trained from infancy he'd be even farther ahead than as things did play out.

And finally, if you believe Yoda, who says that the Dark Side is NOT stronger, then perhaps staying on the "good side" (the term "light side" comes from the EU) would mean he'd eventually become more powerful than he was as a Sith Lord.

Then again in AOTC Lucas says the Dark Side is stronger. But one could still interpret this as that the Dark Side is not stronger, but it does allow you to "shroud" the powers of unwary force sensitives, sapping their power and making them less than they normally would be. Perhaps Yoda and Obi-Wan were able to "break through" this shroud when they discovered the plot to destroy the Jedi, and this allowed them to suddenly start whooping butt on the troopers and Palpatine/Anakin, while the rest of the Jedi died like chumps from what should have been an easily thwarted attack in most cases. Anyway, that's all my speculation...


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-14-2005, 08:42 PM   #34
JerAir
 
JerAir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sitting in front of my computer
Posts: 211
Good points. I stand corrected in the cybernetic extremeties thing and the midi-chlorians thing, but I still think he lost a good amount of midi-chlorians from Obi and never fully regained all of them. I guess the main reason of why I think Vader wasn't as powerful because in RotS, he just slices and dices everyone in the academy, but he had a good bit of trouble with Luke, even if Luke didn't have much training at all, probably because Luke had a whole lot of midichlorians as well.

Will Lucas make up his mind? Either the Dark Side is stronger or it isn't. I know the Dark side is all about attack, and the Light Side more defence-oriented, but does it really make the Dark Side more powerful?

I've noticed in the movies that only the light side could enable people to become 'ghosts' in the force. When Obi sacrificed himself, I guess you could say he really didn't DIE, because he could still 'talk' to Luke. Was Qui Gonn the first to discover this power? In the RotS book, Qui Gonn's "ghost" appeared to Yoda, and yoda learned it. In the movie, Yoda says he will train Obi. This is what he learned. Somehow Anakin learns and you see them all together at the end of RotJ (minus Qui Gonn)

I may be wrong about this "only the light side can enable you to be a 'ghost' " thing, but it's just an observation, I'm sure someone has said this before. I know Exar Kun trapped his 'consciousness (sp?)' into the Massassi temple, but he didn't really become a "ghost".

Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.
JerAir is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-15-2005, 12:15 AM   #35
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
"quicker, easier, more seductive."

The darkside isn't stronger, as much is said in Empire.

Anakin stumbled upon the ghost thing out of his love for his son.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-15-2005, 01:19 PM   #36
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,298
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
So it's quite possible that other people stumbled on it before Qui Gon.

The Dark Side being stronger are Lucas's words, not mine. Is he saying Yoda is wrong? Or is it something like the strength of the Darkside waxes and wanes... maybe sometimes it's actually stronger and holds more sway in the galaxy. It's not like in these stories the underdog can't win. Even if the Dark Side is a corruption and abnormality, that can still makes sense if it holds sway for a time.


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-15-2005, 02:23 PM   #37
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
The only thing that makes the darkside stronger is that there is no restraint, but someone powerful in the force can face a darksider and stand level ground to them.

At least that's my guess since there's really nothing to the darkside except giving into your feelings, unlike the jedi who restrain ill will.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-15-2005, 02:27 PM   #38
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,298
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
What about the ability to "shroud" the powers of others?

I mean, sure, the ability to "hide from other force sensitives" seems to have been learned by the Jedi finally in the OT era, but still. The above seems to be a unique power the Sith have.

The two powers together seem to be what Lucas was citing as proof that the Dark Side was stronger (in his AOTC commentary).

I wonder if he clarifies this or contradicts himself in the ROTS commentary? (I still don't have it yet)


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-16-2005, 08:43 PM   #39
JerAir
 
JerAir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sitting in front of my computer
Posts: 211
I remember in the RotS book it took the Analogy of the Light side to literal light.

Where there is light, there is a shadow. The shadow is the dark side. the more light, the more shadow. If there is no light, there is only darkness. But it is never like that for long.

I think this explains why Vader could kill those jedi so easily. After they all died, and Yoda and Obi died, there was only Luke (pretty much, but there was Leia.. but I'm not getting into that)

So if the light and shadow analogy is saying what I think it is, There wasn't a whole lot of light and the darkness was 'shared' between Palpatine and Vader. Maybe that's why vader had trouble with Luke?
JerAir is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-17-2005, 03:08 PM   #40
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,298
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Ah but couldn't you theoretically have "all light" in an area? Just fill every crevice (easier on a smooth surface), including in front of and behind objects, like a flash bang or something. You could even more easily have "all dark" with no light whatsoever.

Since visible light is just photos, and darkness the absence of these.
Anyway, it would be under perfect conditions but I think it would be possible, at least in my imagination.


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
(JA Server: 108.178.55.189:29070)


"The Concussion Rifle is the weapon of a Jedi Knight Player, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized community." - Kyle Katarn
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Star Wars > Prequel Trilogy > How Does Darth Vader use the Force...

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:47 PM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.