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Old 02-09-2006, 04:53 PM   #1
Katarn07
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Does Jan Ors have a robotic hand?

Out cruising around the net, I stumbled across some Wiki articles pertaining to the DF/JK series characters. The Star Wars Databank for being the official source of truth and what not sucks the big one, and to my dissappointment Wiki didn't prove much better. Anywho, back to point. At the very end of the article it says:

Quote:
Jan's right hand is mechanical, reminiscent of both Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker.
I've noticed the gloved hand, but never took it as being mechanical. But upon closer examination, it very well may be. Check out her right hand:





What's the deal with that? I thought I knew everything there is to know about these characters. It seems I'm slipping....



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Old 02-09-2006, 05:40 PM   #2
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Well, it's not that uncommon for a Star Wars character to have a mechanical hand. I wonder how she lost her real hand.

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Old 02-09-2006, 06:49 PM   #3
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It got bitten off by a rabid nerf?



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Old 02-10-2006, 07:05 AM   #4
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*yawn*

You youngsters obviously havent read William C Deitz's books about the Dark Forces series, or listened to the accompanying audio dramatistaions....

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Old 02-10-2006, 03:45 PM   #5
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I read books 1 and 3 ages ago. Book 2, believe it or not, is no where to be found in any library in my system. So, care to ellaborate on that oh wise one? The folks from Wiki didn't seem to care to do so.

Anywho, I didn't care much for that series of books. Book 1 was great and true to the events of the game. Book 3 was just weird. I know basing a book off a video game is hard, but they changed so much of what was established in the games. Yun's final words kicked ass though



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Old 02-10-2006, 08:21 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarn07
I read books 1 and 3 ages ago. Book 2, believe it or not, is no where to be found in any library in my system. So, care to ellaborate on that oh wise one? The folks from Wiki didn't seem to care to do so.

Anywho, I didn't care much for that series of books. Book 1 was great and true to the events of the game. Book 3 was just weird. I know basing a book off a video game is hard, but they changed so much of what was established in the games. Yun's final words kicked ass though
Once again, Wiki is written by FANBOYS & MONKEYS(like that dude who wrote the entry for Lucasforums) It should not be confidently quoted as a valid source.

I havent read those books in a very long time. I'd need to check with TFN staff to see if theyre geeky enough to remember The other possible source is RPG sourcebook material, but I dont have access to any of that to check.

Maybe our mighty admin Kurgan knows, he's the king of all that is JK

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Old 02-14-2006, 02:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrotoy7
Once again, Wiki is written by FANBOYS & MONKEYS(like that dude who wrote the entry for Lucasforums) It should not be confidently quoted as a valid source.

I havent read those books in a very long time. I'd need to check with TFN staff to see if theyre geeky enough to remember The other possible source is RPG sourcebook material, but I dont have access to any of that to check.

Maybe our mighty admin Kurgan knows, he's the king of all that is JK

mtfbwya
Honestly, I always just assumed it was some kind of tech gear, like some tools built into a glove for easy access, since she's a pilot and mechanic. In JK1 the game there's no indication that she has a cyborg hand, but I'd have to watch all the cutscenes again to check there (just for my own satisfaction since it was already done above). In JK2 she wears the glove, yes. So who knows. I read the novels (the audio books are just dramatizations of the books themselves, not expansions in this case anyway), except for Soldier for the Empire, but maybe I missed somethings. I certainly didn't remember that Qu Rahn's saber in JK1 (before it gets taken away) was supposed to be Yoda's, for exampe. The Dark Forces novels are VERY short, and mirror events from the cutscenes so closely (but the in-between details are very different than what you experience in game, or it's "off camera" stuff).

I'm sure Justin Chin would know (head guy on the JK1 team and was also in charge of the Dark Forces project which had the same team pretty much). I have the paperback strategy/guidebook to JK1 (sadly not with me in town though but I *think* it was the "Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight Official Strategy Guide" by Rick Barba & Prima from 1997) which had all the behind-the-scenes stuff for the game and info from the developers. So if it's in any public source it's probably going to be found there.

I'm surprised the dreaded WOTC RPG hasn't written or re-written this detail yet, as they've pretty much screwed with every other detail of the Dark Forces/JK series thus far it seems... which always bugs me when people cite it as a "canon authority" because it's just another danged GAME, so it's like saying Kyle Katarn's lightsaber has been blue "all along" just because it's blue in Jedi Outcast. You really need a third canon source to override two games that conflict (and the databank doesn't count).


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Old 02-16-2006, 12:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
I'm surprised the dreaded WOTC RPG hasn't written or re-written this detail yet, as they've pretty much screwed with every other detail of the Dark Forces/JK series thus far it seems...
Can you be more specific??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
You really need a third canon source to override two games that conflict (and the databank doesn't count).
What do you take as an official canon source?

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Old 02-11-2006, 02:34 PM   #9
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So you're saying the books definately state it's a mechanical hand and you just don't remember the cause, or you were just assuming it's in the books and guessed I didn't read them yet? I'm looking into it because it annoys me I never heard of this.

And as for Wiki, I understand who it's written by, but if fricken' SW Databank actually had some up to date content in it, I wouldn't even probably bothered googling for that kind of stuff.



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Old 02-11-2006, 02:39 PM   #10
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It's mechanical, I only recently noticed myself.



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Old 02-12-2006, 12:06 AM   #11
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Can someone who has JK take a screenie from a custcene confirming that the HAND/ARM is mechanical...

I've contacted friends with the original books, and with the WEG sourcebooks, none of them mention this.

Not even the WOTC RPG Stats mention anything.

In fact, the only reference quoted so far .... is ****** Wiki.

the only other possibility left is the audio dramatisations, but I'll be receiving confirmation soon. In the interim, a good screenie of an actual mechanical hand/arm(NOT A GLOVE) would be nice

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Old 02-12-2006, 03:56 AM   #12
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Hrm, I seem to recall one scene where the glove may come off and that being the cutscene between levels 2 and 3 of JK when Kyle's on the medbed. It's too late and I don't feel like installing it atm to see that. I did find some WotC bio stuff on her and it mentions nothing of the sort, nor does it mention it in her RPG stats. It's a lengthier article and still mentions nothing of the sort.

It did mention several incidents I'm unfamiliar with in it that may or may not have been mentioned in other EU. This was confused me the most:

Quote:
Adventure Seed: Jedi Search

In the aftermath of the Yuuzhan Vong War, Kyle Katarn went searching for clues about the Sith. He has yet to return. In response, Jan Ors and Jedi Master Mara Jade Skywalker have put together a crack team of heroes consisting of Alpha Blue agents and Jedi Knights to find Kyle. Eventually heading out into the region called the Cloak of the Sith, the heroes find Kyle held captive by the cyborg Jedi Daye Azur-Jamin, who has been twisted to the Dark Side by an evil Force-user. The heroes must free Kyle and attempt to turn Azur-Jamin back to the light. Whether they succeed or are instead forced to kill him, the cyborg reveals information that is truly shocking: There is a dangerous Force-strong Yuuzhan Vong loose in the galaxy, and judging from her powers, it is clear that she has a master . . .
That never happened, did it? I never finished the NJO. I don't hate it, but I certainly didn't love it enough to ever get through them all. If that is the case, why the **** is Kyle out looking for clues about the Sith again?! Didn't he learn his lesson the last time in MotS?

EDIT - Found a bit more in Kyle's bio on the WotC site.

Quote:
While in Imperial Remnant space, Kyle heard a rumor that the Sith had possibly survived all these years after Endor. Due to his personal experience with mysterious Sith magic on Drommund Kaas, Kyle took it upon himself to investigate after the invasion, following clues from Ord Sedra in the Clacis Sector to Yaga Minor, and finally striking out into the region known as the Cloak of the Sith. There's been no word from Kyle for some time, and it's feared that he's succumbed to the same fate as the Jedi Daye Azur-Jamin, who inexplicably disappeared during the Yuuzhan Vong War.
Astro Edit - Ive gotten rid of that url for "It" - what the heck was that !



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Last edited by Astrotoy7; 02-12-2006 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 02-12-2006, 07:55 AM   #13
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OK. Here's the deal. Ive hassled people with JK and the related books ets, contacted staff at other EU boards.

There is no OFFICIAL source that states tha Jan has a mechanical hand or not. It is not mentioned in *any* official database entries or officially published character guides. The "story" of Jan's hand was not described in any game or story. It *may* have been mentioned in the audio versions, though this is unlikely(nb. this is very hard to check as they are near impossible to find nowdays)

Wiki's mentioning of Jan's mechanical hand, whilst not incorrect, is based on observation from the games. She is wearing it in every single cutscene in JKI. Even in the medbay scene where she isnt wearing her other gear, she still has the glove.

It is therefore a reasonable assumption to conclude one of two things:
*Jan has a robotic hand OR
*Jan's own had may still be intact and she has a glove(ie. acting as a prosthesis) which keeps its function intact.

as far Im concerned, case closed It's one of those little grey areas that EU has. Considering Jan is a game character more than a book/comic character, its not hugely surprising thats such details are missed.

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Old 02-13-2006, 09:07 PM   #14
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*moved to EU boards*
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Old 02-13-2006, 10:56 PM   #15
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Actually in one of the cutscenes, I think right before Kyle goes into the tower to meet 8T-88 she is fixing her hand. I also believe that I heard that it was cut off by a sith. Im not forsure if thats right or not, but I do kinda remember hearing something like that.

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Old 02-14-2006, 12:53 AM   #16
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lol... coupes - I was about to move it - but thought the topic was going to fizz out

@Zappa... no that is not correct.

Ive just watched every single cutscene from JK1, lifted off my JK1 game discs and run using RAD video tools(as the are in SMK format)

Jan has the glove on in every single scene, even the one in teh medbay where she doesnt have her other field gear with her.

In addition, the only sith around at that time(as she evidently has the glove in DF1) is Vader and Sidious. There is no mention of any such encounter in any canion source.

The two conclusions stated above are the closest to an answer you'll get.

Someone at TFN did point out that in one of the illustrations for the the Deitz novels, that she isnt wearing one, but that this was an error on the part of the illustrator(one among several that appear in these books).

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Old 02-14-2006, 03:39 PM   #17
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Didnt Boc do something to her near the end on DF2? I seem to remember something like that too.

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Old 02-14-2006, 07:10 PM   #18
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If he did it couldn't have been to cut off her hand, since she wouldn't have had time to construct one. IIRC she has the "big glove" on in the first cutscene with her (so that would be the second or third cutscene in game "I'd be a content old man!").


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Old 02-14-2006, 08:12 PM   #19
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I love those live action cutscenes. It's a shame they don't still do them, they would have been great in Jedi Outcast and Academy.



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Old 02-14-2006, 09:49 PM   #20
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I love those live action cutscenes. It's a shame they don't still do them, they would have been great in Jedi Outcast and Academy.
I think that the reason that they don't do them anymore is because they thnk that it will tie into the game better, that there may be a smoother cutscene to game transition...I'm unsure though, they may have just gotten lazy...or anything else, there could be a multitude of reasons


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Old 02-14-2006, 10:19 PM   #21
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Heck, even ingame images appear to have had that gloved hand.



It appears she's got a glove and I can sort of see it in my mind's eye. Too small to really tell.



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Old 02-14-2006, 10:22 PM   #22
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The real reason is such cutscenes cost a fortune to make. The JK1 cutscenes apparently had the budget of a small motion picture. And for the reward you get with them (that is, most players watch them once and that's it) it isn't worth the high cost. If you just have to hire voice actors (or just get the programmers to do it if you're really strapped for cash) it saves a lot of time and money. Emperor: Battle for Dune had live action+CG cutscenes and it came out in 2001 (to reasonable success too I thought), but I haven't really seen a game since then that had them, and the "multi-media game" based on such things has pretty mucy died out (although I believe MYST III: Exile had them, but again that's a 2000/2001 game IIRC).

"Game engine generated cutscenes" (or whatever you want to call using the same models and animations to act out cutscenes in a game) save time, and with the improvement in graphics over the years, they don't look as different from the regular gameplay as they did in the past. In a game like JK1 the in-game models were boxy and lacked detail compared to live actors, but the difference isn't so great in a modern game coming out today (though they still don't look quite real or human).

But anyway, the real reason is monetary. LucasArts has tried to weather the storm of decreasing revenues in the PC games market in various ways, and one of those is in cost-saving measures like not making mini-movies in their cutscenes anymore. The other, unfortunately, is focusing their attention on console games that they can crank out quickly and tie into other products.


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Old 02-14-2006, 10:52 PM   #23
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Remember the FMV sequences in Rebel Assault 2? I don't remember if they made the game somewhat better or were flat out stupid. I was 10 or 11 at the time of watching them and probably not the best to be the judge of that.

I rather enjoyed the FMV of JK but yes, it does take you out of the gaming experience.



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Old 02-14-2006, 11:08 PM   #24
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Yeah but RA2 was made before JK1, and it was so largely multimedia driven anyway (most of the gameplay was based on CG rendered or FMV that had animated targets added to it for you to shoot) that it was kind of essential. It too had a mix of CG and live action for the cutscenes, much like the backgrounds. In that respect it was more like Area51 (it was a rail shooter that also used a lot of rendered and digitized graphics rather than polygonal models).

I remember thinking how awesome they looked back when they came out, but now I've been so spoiled watching the Star Wars movies on DVD that they look pretty cruddy. I wish they would re-release RA and RA2 with the higher quality sprites (24-bit) and video they had available at the time (but they were forced to reduce to 8-bit quality for the sake of home computers at that time.

Well anyway as far as Jan's hand is concerned, interesting. Looking closely at the screenshots (I couldn't see them before) I see that she's had it throughout the series. Since this takes place over several years, it couldn't just have been a temporary thing (like repairing an injury). So is it a tool or a bulky version of the artificial hand that Luke and Anakin has? You'd think working for the New Republic they could afford to give her a better one if it is. I mean, the Rebellion to afford to give Luke one that looked "just like the real thing" until damaged.


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Old 02-14-2006, 11:54 PM   #25
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I prefer live action sequences to engine cut scenes myself
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Old 02-15-2006, 04:25 AM   #26
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heh... why the heck would gaming devs even bother with FMV.... as Kurgz mentioned, you need to hire crew, get film and lighting equipment(which is freakin expensive) cast actors, wardrobe, makeup, a director, a sound guy, a director of photography etc etc...

CGI cutscenes can be pretty realistic nowdays if devs want them to be - look at the Final Fantasy Series for example.

FMV is over, theyre a relic of the 90s.

Kurgz - I assure you - Jan wears the glove in every scene in JK1, even when she doesnt have her field gear on(in medbay scene)...

Yes she does get captured by the Dark jedi - but by this time her hand is already gloved (it was right from the very first scene)

lolz...TFNers didnt really have much of a clue either Linkage

It seems Astro has grown more powerful than his old masters

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Old 02-15-2006, 12:38 PM   #27
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Alright I'll take your word for it.

One other situation I'm wondering about... in Jedi Outcast you can spawn in "Jedi Jan" and I swore the model was slightly different (npc spawn jedif). Then again Jan was never a Jedi so perhaps you could ignore it if she lacked the "glove."

So the only question that remains.. just what is this "glove" really?


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Old 02-15-2006, 02:15 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
So the only question that remains.. just what is this "glove" really?
A fitted covering for the hand with a separate sheath for each finger and the thumb.


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Old 02-15-2006, 09:12 PM   #29
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But I liked the 90's, and FMV, and the days when not just any moron could use a computer
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Old 02-15-2006, 10:00 PM   #30
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I was never really taken with FMV in games. Jedi Knight was an excellent game, but I didn't care much for the acting in the cutscenes. I've forced myself to forget the cutscenes in Rebel Assault II, the entire game for that matter.

I know when Wing Commander became a FMV game I lost interest in the series, I enjoyed WC1 and 2 alot, but once 3 came along I just wasn't interested in playing the game anymore. I'm glad we are away from those sequences in games.

Oh, and the first time I really noticed Jan Ors gloved hand was in DF II Jedi Knight, then when playing the first DF I started noticing it as well. I've never pondered whether it was a cynthetic replacement until this posts - could be though.


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Old 02-16-2006, 07:04 PM   #31
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An official canon source would be like a liscensed Star Wars novel, guidebook, movie reference, recent George Lucas quote, etc. Not another game, not some wiki page (none of which are official), not the databank.

A lot of the game stuff becomes murky because of the game mechanics that are there by nature. Comic books exaggerate things (as does the Clone Wars series). So it's not that such things can't contain canon, just that it's far easier to see it elsewhere. It's much easier to read things into games when we take them out of the game context (like one person interpreted Dark Forces as showing that Kyle Katarn always had high force ability because he used the Force to carry all those heavy weapons in the first game!).

Of course when you're talking about game stuff you also have to check it for accuracy. For example I think the NEG to Characters said that Kyle Katarn spared the life of Sariss. However in the game and the novelle he clearly kills her (the author probably got her confused with Tavion, who is dead anyway later on after the book was written).


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Old 02-17-2006, 07:49 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
An official canon source would be like a liscensed Star Wars novel, guidebook, movie reference, recent George Lucas quote, etc. Not another game, not some wiki page (none of which are official), not the databank
Jan has been integrated into WoTCs RPG stuff. (I linked to it earlier) Some of the story about her and Kyles adventures after the YV War are from WOTC sources(as well as DH sources)

Quote:
Originally Posted by palpatine dc
In Star Wars Tales #21 - Equals and opposites you can see clearly that Jan has a mechanical right hand. This story takes place during the Yuuzhan Vong war, so it isn't certain that at the time of the DF/JK games her right hand was already mechanical. But I think it probably was.
excellent - a (possible)confirmation that she *does* have a mechanical hand -though it'd be nice to have a pic. Any chance of a page scan or even just a digital pic of that ?? Though teh events of DF1 and JK are FAR before the YV war So that still doesnt explain why/how.

Kurgan of course will tell us that the Tales comics are a dubious canon source, but since Jan is a game character, any information is good information, as stuff on her is very scarce

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Old 02-16-2006, 08:43 PM   #33
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In Star Wars Tales #21 - Equals and opposites you can see clearly that Jan has a mechanical right hand. This story takes place during the Yuuzhan Vong war, so it isn't certain that at the time of the DF/JK games her right hand was already mechanical. But I think it probably was.
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Old 02-17-2006, 12:12 PM   #34
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A picture from said issue
It pretty much looks them same all the way through the comic



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Old 02-17-2006, 02:34 PM   #35
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Well, only the first 20 or 21 (I forget which) issues of Tales are non-canon (same as Infinities). The rest are as good as any. So if that's the story now then fine, she's got a droid hand.

Happy? All you had to do was name the source, so it's cool.


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Old 02-18-2006, 10:04 AM   #36
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lolz....2 forums and over 60 posts later..... the answer is revelead...... well, sorta.

We dont really know how it happenned

however, this is stunning proof that LFN EU>TFN EU

goof work palpatine_dc and Terros

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Old 02-18-2006, 01:56 PM   #37
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Hehe, great.

A wiki page labelled #21 as the first "fully canonical" Tales volume. While wiki should always be taken with a heavy amount of salt, that seems to jibe with what I've heard elsewhere anyway, so there you go.


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Old 02-19-2006, 10:21 AM   #38
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Kurgan, you know ive rigged VB3 so that use of Wiki in the EU area as a reference will cause you to contract leprosy

re- "Tales" canon status - I'd prefer to hear that statement from Leland Chee as opposed to some fat guy in a jedi robe typing a wiki article on his momz computer bah !

Back on topic :

Ive come across my old Dark Forces novels... going to check them out myself, to see if any relevant details have been missed

belated edit- A friend has also let me borrow her uber rare DF audiobooks...I'll eventually get around to listening, and will advise if I hear anything special...

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Last edited by Astrotoy7; 03-05-2006 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 02-19-2006, 01:18 PM   #39
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My point was even your beloved wiki claims the first 20 issues of Tales aren't canon. One can't be too careful.

Quote:
Ive come across my old Dark Forces novels... going to check them out myself, to see if any relevant details have been missed
Roger, that.


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Old 02-20-2006, 04:33 AM   #40
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Don't talk smack about wikipedia! You'll make it mad
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