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Old 03-21-2006, 09:11 PM   #1
Dick Cheney
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What the hell are fighters good for?

I've played the game a lot and the space battles really bug me.

Specifically, fighters are worthless. What the hell do you need them for? They kill bombers fast, but so do anti-fighter/bomber CORVETTES.

One Tartan Cruiser will OWNX0R 8-10 squadrons of fighters, more and faster if it uses its special ability. Corellian corvettes, same deal.

All you really need is capships and corvettes with optional bombers on the flanks as a kamikaze squad. My bombers rarely survive even without running into enemy corvettes, but at least they do the damage before dying.

Capships and corvettes pretty much just OWNX0R the **** out of everything. I mean your enemy can spam bombers but if you micro your corvettes even slightly, there is no way in hell their bombers are going to get the jump on your capships.

Fighters/bombers just seem to die way too fast to be of great use, the only different between the two is that bombers are good vs. capships and hardpoints whereas fighters... well, see the title!

Anyone got a second opinion? Maybe I'm dumb?

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Old 03-21-2006, 09:30 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Cheney
Anyone got a second opinion? Maybe I'm dumb?

Your Names Dick Cheney hahah JK had to say it!

But your right like in multi i use them to get to mines first and to attack ties because fies suck lol they are good for about five minutes then dont even buy them....
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Old 03-21-2006, 10:00 PM   #3
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Cheney - it's okay to express your opnion, but please remove the 'rape' references in your post.

Please leave the moderating to the moderators. If you have a complaint or want to report a post you find offensive, send a PM to one of us. -LIAYD


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Old 03-21-2006, 10:12 PM   #4
Dick Cheney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Windu
Cheney - it's okay to express your opnion, but please remove the 'rape' references in your post.
Done and done. Are we that PC up in here? Anyway fighters still suck.
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Old 03-21-2006, 11:06 PM   #5
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Almost everyone in the world is that PC.

And I don't like fighters either. I prefer corvettes for the extermination of enemy fighters and bombers.

As the Rebellion I never build fighters, and only make a couple of squadrons of bombers to add to my ground assault group to provide bombing runs. As the Empire, I mostly ignore my Tie fighters/bombers. (Except perhaps at the end of a battle - when all but one or two enemy ships are gone - at which point I'll "Ctrl-A" and have everything shoot at each of the remaining couple of targets until they're destroyed.)
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Old 03-21-2006, 11:18 PM   #6
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They are completely useless. They just make the battle more movie like because dogfights are part of it. The only thing I use them for are destroying transports or decoys.



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Old 03-22-2006, 04:38 AM   #7
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So noted LIAYD - oh yeah, never congradulated you for making Moderator so...congrats

Dick - I will just say that I have had some experience in the issue, and using the terminology for a horrible crime to describe parts of a video game is offensive to me.


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Old 03-22-2006, 05:19 AM   #8
MistenTH
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In Vanillia EAW they die too fast, unfortunately.

There are mods out there that make fighters more useful. Head over to the mod forums and take a look [my sig has the mods I made, but there are others out there too]


EAW: Star Wars Realism v3.0 - a mod that improves the realism, balance & gameplay from the default EAW Space Combat & Space Skirmish. Introduces a FLEET! Deathmatch mode.

http://pff.swrebellion.com/index.php?topic=2763.0
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=161089

EAW: Tactical Command - a Space Skirmish mod that seeks to bring tactics to EAW. Also introduces Scenario play.

http://pff.swrebellion.com/index.php?topic=3136.0
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=162569
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Old 03-22-2006, 08:35 AM   #9
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I agree, fighters should be more useful. Bombers are useful, but fighters can effectively only kill other fighters, but that's kind of useless, as corvettes/tarties do that job better.
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Old 03-22-2006, 09:07 AM   #10
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fighters can be somewhat useful for taking out Marauders or Broadsides since those ships are horrendously slow.

as for using tactics for your fighters and bombers, first, you have to remember that fighters and bombers are really cheap. in other words, you don't necessarily have to protect them at all costs. second, remember that if one ship is occupied with your fighters, that leaves room open for your bombers. using several fighter squadrons to harass the corvettes and keep them occupied keeps things open for your bombers. a simple tactic that i've used several times is the Ion attack ability from the Y-wings to better enable the fighters to harrass corvettes.

another possibility for fighters is to throw them at corvettes which leaves your capital ships open to attack the corvettes, even with low health or sheilds. fighters do have their uses if you use them properly in the first place.


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Old 03-22-2006, 09:34 AM   #11
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Cough cough really cheap.

X-Wing squadron cost you almost half a price of corvette. And corvette can take out much faster more tie squadrons and bombers than two x-wing squadrons.

No really the poster has the point. Fighters are completly useless. They are there just for candy purpose and first minutes of skirmish when you have to rush mines and build pads.

If you ask me Tartan and Corvette should not be in the game at all. Or if they decided to have them anyway then dammage against fighters should have been minimal.

In Movies we saw the corvette only once in Episode IV and Tartan is pure product of X-wing vs Tie Fighter.



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Old 03-22-2006, 12:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stingerhs
another possibility for fighters is to throw them at corvettes which leaves your capital ships open to attack the corvettes, even with low health or sheilds. fighters do have their uses if you use them properly in the first place.
Isn't this like feeding rabbits to a lion? Corvettes cut through fighters so quickly that it doesn't even slow them down (on higher difficulties at least - on "easy" fighters may have more of a chance).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orao
In Movies we saw the corvette only once in Episode IV and Tartan is pure product of X-wing vs Tie Fighter.
Actually Corellian Corvettes also made prominent appearances in Ep. VI, and very briefly at the end of Ep. V as well.

And I think I saw Tartans in Ep. III - a group of four of them set a ways off from the Venators at the beginning of the movie - same aspect and formation, but it could have been a predecessor ship of some type.

(Oh, and I never thought Acclamator frigates or SPMA-T artillery walkers appeared in a movie until I watched Ep. II again.)

Last edited by ScorLibran; 03-22-2006 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 03-22-2006, 11:06 AM   #13
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If the game didnt have any fighters, there would be uproar. if you dont like them, dont build them (Rebels). I use mine to take out space station hard points when I can. Useful for that. But i love the way that the Tartans and Vettes just rip through fighters..too cool!

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Old 03-22-2006, 11:09 AM   #14
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No, no no no!!! Fighters aren`t useless... Few X-Wing squadron can take out Tartan, especially when it use it`s special ability. Just put on the special ability of X-Wing, and Tartan won`t hit it! The accuracy is too low.And, corvettes and other ships are too slow to make some part of the job, and, for example, 10 corvettes are no match to 5 lvl station, but 4 X-Wing squadron and 6 Y-Wing will take that station with easy. Ofcourse if it don`t manage to call Tartan lol.... X-Wings will draw their fire, and Y-Wings will take down Hangar and, one by one, turrets.

stinghers.... No fighter will stand against Marauder or Broadside, one single rocket can take out 3 squadrons

Orao, X-Wing costs 300 credits, with Mon Monthma 225, and Corellian corvette costs 1300.... Tartan 1250(or more)


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Old 03-22-2006, 11:55 AM   #15
MistenTH
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In Skirmish X-wings cost 500 per squadron.


EAW: Star Wars Realism v3.0 - a mod that improves the realism, balance & gameplay from the default EAW Space Combat & Space Skirmish. Introduces a FLEET! Deathmatch mode.

http://pff.swrebellion.com/index.php?topic=2763.0
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=161089

EAW: Tactical Command - a Space Skirmish mod that seeks to bring tactics to EAW. Also introduces Scenario play.

http://pff.swrebellion.com/index.php?topic=3136.0
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=162569
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Old 03-22-2006, 12:32 PM   #16
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Regardless of the utility value or longevity of fighters, they do quite a bit to add scale to the game. Without the fighters, the cap ships wouldn't seem nearly so grand and impressive. If anything, there should be many more fighters in the fight and they should use up fewer pop cap points relative to cap ships.


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Old 03-22-2006, 01:04 PM   #17
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The problem with Fighters is that if you lose more than 1/2 their numbers, they are considered destroyed at the end of battle while a Corvette or tartan with a hair of hull left will be good as new. This make it a lot easier to come out of a battle with you Corvette/Tartan intact while you will most certainly lose a few fighters.
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Old 03-22-2006, 02:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Cheney
One Tartan Cruiser will OWNX0R 8-10 squadrons of fighters,

I read up to that... Then I figured with that wording, it's not worth reading the rest...

I personaly just love watching fighters dogfight, go to cinamatic view, and it's rather fun. They arn't usless.






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Old 03-22-2006, 02:53 PM   #19
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I think it is more a matter of Petro not faithfully representing the capabilities of ships. It is unfortunate that it takes the mod community to make units operate as they should have out of the box.

1. Capital ships should be excellent against corvettes but piss poor against fighters/bombers unless they have laser cannons. Currently their shots seem to miss corvettes way to often for my liking.

2. Corvettes should be good against fighters because of fast tracking laser cannons, and excellent against bombers due to their slower speed compared to fighters. Corvettes tear through fighters too quickly right now but are about right versus bombers.

3. Fighters should be good against corvettes because of their speed but expect losses. They should be decent against capital ships but lacking the punch of bombers.

4. Bombers are horrible against corvettes but excellent against capital ships. They are fine as is.
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Old 03-22-2006, 02:54 PM   #20
Dick Cheney
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Everyone seems to think I advocate REMOVING FIGHTERS.

When did I say there should be no fighters? I just said they arent good for a damn thing.

I think we should MAKE FIGHTERS USEFUL. How the hell are you going to have a Star Wars game without fighters? Come on now.

Anti-fighter units should be made less effective, period -- or more expensive. Or maybe fighters do more damage against hardpoints.
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Old 03-22-2006, 03:18 PM   #21
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I like fighters they can have there use's normally scouting at the start or if i got my opponent defending i scout with them to find a nice point for the big ships to jump in.

I would like to see maybe a button like vaders that replenish's all the fighters in a group but while vaders is free maybe we could make it half the price of a new squad. Maybe then a full squad would'nt die in like 2 seconds of coming into contact with a corvette, well you would need to be quick to get them outta ther the moment they do replenish.

Just seen someone bring this up, The way x wings in a skirmish game can reach nearly every resource point due to thier special abiltiy.

This is quite an imbalance though maybe if the empire produced one extra tie squadron or maybe 2 at the start?
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Old 03-22-2006, 03:11 PM   #22
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Bombers seem to do their job well, but yeah the fighters are way too weak for anything. Ok, xwings are ok for objectives, but unless its Rogue Squadron they are not going to do much too much, and chances are, they WILL die fast.

Now corvettes takes two slots, fighter squads take one. Corvettes are more durable, costs only a wee bit more per-slot wise, and comes with nice ability usually.
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Old 03-22-2006, 03:55 PM   #23
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So far - without any multiplayer experience and only a few skirmish matches - I'd join the faction that says 'It's not a great weakness ... but somewhat irritating'. And I agree with Ryebread: Corvettes do seem to be a little too good. It's slightly silly that they can take so much damage - even from capital ships - yet annihilate fighters and bombers in a heartbeat. At least that's the way it sometimes looks to me - from the imperial side, of course. Fighters certainly have their uses, but it wouldn't hurt the game at all, if they'd take a little less damage from corvettes - and indeed, it could also be a nice idea to let them be of moderate use at attacking corvettes. In my opinion, capital ships can use a bit of help there.
Mmmh ... though this might seem a little one biased towards the Empire (it is, after all - who else is there to save the galaxy? ): I think tie fighters should be better at attacking x-wings. They are the obvious counterpart, and just because we Tie Pilots lack shielding, it doesn't mean that we are worse pilots than the rebels or that our vessels should be considered sub-par. Yes, they are mass-produced ... but crafted by the loving hands of the best imperial construction droids!
Therefore I feel obliged to protest: Tie Fighters are not cannon fodder for X-Wings! Even for the sake of balance in this simulation, I fail to see a reason for their current weakness - after all, there is not an endless number of ties aboard star destroyers anyway.


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Old 03-22-2006, 04:20 PM   #24
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The game screws with the definitions of these ships. That's the prob.

A Corvette has like 2 guns. How can it annihilate fighters? The Imperial "Tartan" or whatever is stupid too. Imperials should have a Lancer frigate. That is a ship designed for whipping fighters asses.

They balanced the crap out of the game with no regard for the true ship designs laid down in many books over the years. This is why I haven't played anything but the demo. That was enough for me. Rebellion is the superior game.

The developers basically ignored every good game to come out of LucasArts. I could lay to waste a Corvette with one X-Wing or TIE Advanced in the X-Wing/TIE Fighter/XWA. A TIE Bomber with torpedos could cripple one quick. That's how it should be.
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Old 05-24-2006, 09:15 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swaaye
A Corvette has like 2 guns. How can it annihilate fighters? The Imperial "Tartan" or whatever is stupid too. Imperials should have a Lancer frigate. That is a ship designed for whipping fighters asses.

They balanced the crap out of the game with no regard for the true ship designs laid down in many books over the years. This is why I haven't played anything but the demo. That was enough for me. Rebellion is the superior game.

A TIE Bomber with torpedos could cripple one quick. That's how it should be.
Champ, your right on a number of points. It is a shame they didnt blend Rebellion and EaW. The plantary conquest in Rebellion is still way better than in EaW although you would have to say Rebellion is more strategically focused than EaW. What really craps me is when you have a massive fleet hovering over a planet in EaW and you can't orbital bombard the crap out of the enemy on the planet. Jesus, this is how warfare is nowadays even with our comparably primitive tech level. Instead its like Normandy...you land with a handful of units and the enemy gets to hit you with everything.

Back to this debate, fighters are not very useful. Corvette class is really way too powerful. It amazes me how fast they can shred numerous squardrons. It should take two salvoes of torpedoes to destroy a corvette but it doesnt. And they can take a fair hammering from Turbolasers too. They should not be anywhere near that tough. If they have to be made cheaper, do it. I am really disappointed at how slow TIEs are too. Sure they are weak, they are supposed to be, but they are no where near as fast as they are suppossed to be.

You can do alot of things with fighters/bombers but if you factor in cost,losses, time, etc, they are the worst way to to do it.
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Old 05-25-2006, 02:15 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rust_Lord
Instead its like Normandy...you land with a handful of units and the enemy gets to hit you with everything.
Quite ironic that the combat in the OT is mostly based on WWII...


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Old 11-06-2006, 01:39 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swaaye
The game screws with the definitions of these ships. That's the prob.

A Corvette has like 2 guns. How can it annihilate fighters? The Imperial "Tartan" or whatever is stupid too. Imperials should have a Lancer frigate. That is a ship designed for whipping fighters asses.

They balanced the crap out of the game with no regard for the true ship designs laid down in many books over the years. This is why I haven't played anything but the demo. That was enough for me. Rebellion is the superior game.

The developers basically ignored every good game to come out of LucasArts. I could lay to waste a Corvette with one X-Wing or TIE Advanced in the X-Wing/TIE Fighter/XWA. A TIE Bomber with torpedos could cripple one quick. That's how it should be.
In either of those games I could lay waste to an ISD and even the SSD (took an insane amount of time, however). It was fun to have a single fighter be able to do so much, though a bit unrealistic. EEA has taken it to the other extreme, however.


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Old 03-22-2006, 04:40 PM   #28
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I can no longer stand silent in midst of such newbish conversation.
Every unit in EaW is useful to strategic degree. Those who think otherwise lack knowledge of strategy. Xwings are strategic units with scenario-specific advantages.
Early-game they are best utilized for scouting opponent mining builds and expansions. Mid and late-game they provide useful waypoints for hyperdriving capital- and cruiser-class ships into opponent mining facilities or into the rear of an enemy-flanking armada for surprise attack.

Know that xwings do have shield and hull strength as opposed to tie fighters that have only hull strength. Therefore, never engage one xwing squadron with one tie squadron in a nebula as the nebula renders sheilds useless. Ties will demolish xwings in 1 on 1 battles within nebulas considering equal unit upgrades.

These are few basic xwing strategies.
Fighters are useful to the strategically inclined.

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Old 03-22-2006, 05:07 PM   #29
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Those advantages are only for space skirmishes. For campaigns and galactic conquest games, X-Wings have greatly reduced value for almost any purpose.

In those scenarios, there are no space mining facilities, and on the tiny space maps flanking an enemy means leaving a capital ship with no corvette escort for protection against bombers, plus the fact that he can be easily isolated and crippled, eating up 3 or 4 slots in your pop cap with no benefit gained for the rest of the battle.

The best strategy on these maps is concentration of fire. This means having all your ships within weapons range of the same enemy ship, and in one group in order to provide covering fire to each other.

Believe me, I'd prefer larger maps and a higher pop cap, so that flanking/pronged/time-offset attacks would actually be useful in campaigns and conquests. But as it stands, the best strategy is the simplest one: one large group attacking the same enemy ship until it goes boom, then another, then another.

And in that setting, properly-used corvettes eat fighters and bombers like Cheetos.
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Old 05-24-2006, 05:19 PM   #30
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Absolutely.

Fighters have their use, but in GC games, these clausterphobic maps renders any type of strategy useless. It's just, point and click at hardpoints and nothing else.

This is part of the reason why many critics bash this as not being a real RTS, but instead an extremely dumbed down version of Rebellion combined with Force Commander.


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Old 05-24-2006, 06:42 PM   #31
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i killed a whole SS with just fighters.I can even kill of acc/Vsd/Isd shield and bale to to destroy their shield generator, then i would attack hangers.So they are not worthless , unless u know how to mass them and tell them where to go and most important on what kind of fighters they are.
so guess which one i always use and no im thinking of skirmish(most popular)


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Old 05-24-2006, 08:53 PM   #32
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The good news is PG have confirmed they're making Corvettes tech 2 in patch 1.05 so fighters will be key early-game until your first station upgrade because Corellians/Tartans won't be available from the start.

The other thing I'd like to see is make fighters even cheaper to encourage their use more.

After 1.05 their role will be more significant. Just like in early-game Starcraft with Tier 1 Zerglings/Marines/Zealots, the fighters will duel for mines and players will have to face the choice of going early rush and produce more fighters or going to Tech 2 to bring the devestating Corellians/Tartars into play.

I like the potential of this 1.05 change.

On a seperate note I think Tie Scouts and Z Wings are next to useless.
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Old 05-24-2006, 10:39 PM   #33
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pirates fighters are best because they are either 350 or 400 credits, fast to build, and more effective than x-wings or ties


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Old 05-24-2006, 11:28 PM   #34
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Yeah, corvettes and such really should be for harassing transports or just a really cheap early combat unit, with medium cap ships like strike cruisers or neb b's for making rather less mobile fighter-screens
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Old 05-25-2006, 06:27 PM   #35
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I love fighters. I only use them to capture pads and mining facilities.
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Old 05-27-2006, 04:39 PM   #36
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As an imperial, I use my (free) fighters to soak up the first burst(s) of enemy fire. Thus allowing me to fokus fire before my enemy. and they are annoying to my enemy, just being there is good, and if caps fire at them, even better.


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Old 05-27-2006, 05:44 PM   #37
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Well, for GC if they have Z95 they might be more useful than Xwings due to their low cost.

The only thing I can see Fighters being useful is for air contrl, since in GC computers can build ships without a space station as long as their orbit is clear.

That having said you can do the same with a unit of Ys, and Ys are better cause they give Orbital when your ground force arrives.

In skirmish Xwings are useful, cause with X-foils locked they last for a long time, perfect for spying and resources grabbing.

But Yes, bang for bucks any corvettes are going to be better than any fighters. Don't get me started on the elight fighters, they are even worse. Anyone see any real use of Awings? Unless you count "lure stupid computers to shoot them instead" as a function, then yeah they are almost useful, but other than that its just as useless as the Imp elite. For the Imps, Map revealing ability is great on ground battles (ground battles you can instant orbital generators ftw), but in space it accounts for much less.

Generally speaking, to make fighters useful, they have to cost less pop-cap. I think if they are like 2-3 units for each ONE pop-cap like ground Inf they might be better. Raise the price accordingly if you want, but at least then they provide more firepower for the battle.
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Old 05-27-2006, 07:00 PM   #38
The Source
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They take too long to build, they cost more than a Tie Fighter, and they die off very quickly. This is just another reason why people shouldn't (No Comment).



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Old 05-30-2006, 09:24 PM   #39
deriko
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I vote that the ability is given for fighters to be released at a chosen time from the capital ships' hangers. The imps would still get their fighters free, and the rebels would still have to buy their own fighters, but the rebel fighters would automaticaly get packed in the cap. ships. If their are no or not enough cap. ships, then the rebel fighters hyperspace in. This would allow the fighters and bombers not to get thrown away at the start of a battle.

Another option is for the devs. to add the ability to choose which units in your fleet come in at first. This should have been in the game in the first place.

OR the devs. could increase the worth of fighters. Add the x-wing proton torpedos and everything, and the fighters could really help. The fighters would cost a lot more and the x-wing proton torpedos would be different than the torps. in the game right now, because then the x-wing would replace the y-wing. Or the y-wings could be changed.

Anyway, just a few brainstorming ideas.
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Old 05-31-2006, 02:49 PM   #40
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Hmm. Well I find both useful. The bombers are spectacularly good at taking out shield generators on capital ships that the enemy has forgotten to cover with Corvettes / Tartans. And the fighters are good for running interference for your capital ships against weapons platforms (which will fire at the fighters first), and also for capturing mines and other capturable stuff quickly.


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