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Old 03-31-2006, 04:46 PM   #1
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Post Contradictions in Star Wars fiction

one thing that makes SW fiction so great for me is the fact that it all fits together so perfectly.
there are alot of stories and "jedi lessons" in EU and they all seem to run on from one another without contradicting each other i just wanted to know if anyone has any different views or have found any contradictions???

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Old 03-31-2006, 09:42 PM   #2
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Whoa man, the EU and the movies are FILLED with contradictions (no offense). That's why there are things called "retcons." That's comic-book speak for something that's been written to explain away a contradiction or change the story to say it was "always this way" but you read the new source to explain the old one, since it doesn't make sense otherwise.

Here's an exercise for you:

Watch Episodes I, II, and III. Then watch IV, V and VI (doesn't matter if you watch the Special Editions, original versions or 2004 editions). You'll note many contradictions, revealed by the following questions:

1) How old is the Republic?
2) Are Stormtroopers all clones of Jango Fett?
3) Who was Obi-Wan Kenobi's Master?
4) Did Obi-Wan Kenobi know of that Leia was Luke's sister?

Notice I'm not talking about contradictions introduced and then explained in the prequels, only contradictions that result after all the movies are taken into account.

Also, as this relates to the EU, after watching the movies, pick up Timothy Zahn's "Thrawn Trilogy" (Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, The Last Command) and read it. Now see the contradictions with the movies based on these questions:

1) How are clones created?
2) Does the Empire clone its soldiers?
3) Did Anakin bring balance to the Force?
4) How many Sith are there?
5) Were the Jedi wiped out? (other than the 3 in the movies, including Vader, and "the other" and Luke after those three died)
6) How long did the Empire last?
7) Do we see any of these EU characters in the movies?
8) Who designed and built the first Death Star? How long did it take?
9) Has the galaxy been explored? Has anyone travelled outside the Star Wars galaxy?
10) Are holocrons mentioned or seen in the movies?
11) How effective is General Grievous against a Jedi Knight or Master in combat?
12) How effective are Jedi Knights in battle against armies of droid troopers?
13) Do Jedi wear armor or space suits? (I'm not counting Luke wearing a helmet in the classic trilogy)
14) Were Wookiees enslaved (as a species or as a world), and if so, by whom?
15) Did the Sith ever rule the galaxy? (before Palpatine's rise to power, I mean)
16) How long after their deaths can Jedi spirits communicate with the living?
17) Do clones "give off a weird vibe in the Force" allowing them to be instantly detected by a Jedi?

You can do the same with the "Dark Empire" and "Dark Empire 2" graphic novels and lots of other sources written before 2005. I'm not saying explanations aren't possible, but there are plenty of contradictions, and that's why retcons are being written all the time. Lucas felt free to contradict the EU and his own movies in making the prequels and the Special Edition changes, creating confusion in the EU and necessitating retcons.

Other questions from these and from a variety of EU sources:

1) How did Palpatine come to look old and wizened?
2) How did Palpatine obtain power?
3) What is Boba Fett's origin?
4) How old is C-3PO?
5) How old is Greedo?
6) What planet are those three eyed aliens (Ree Yees) at Jabba's Palace from?
7) What color are lightsabers used by the Jedi Order? What color are the lightsabers of the Sith?
8) Does Yoda use a lightsaber or not? And did he always "talk backwards"?
9) What caused the clone wars, what factions fought, and how did it end up? How long did the conflict last?
10) How did the Jedi Purge happen, when did it happen, and who survived it?
11) Did Jabba the Hutt (or any Hutts) have any role whatsoever in the Clone Wars and/or Jedi Purge?
12) Did Jabba the Hutt meet with Han Solo in Docking Bay 94 before the Falcon took off for the Alderaan system or was it someone else? Was Boba Fett present?
13) How many members were in the Max Rebo Band at Jabba's Palace? How many dancers were there?
14) When the Emperor speaks to Vader via hologram when he has learned of a great disturbance in the Force, was it a private conversation, or was someone else listening in?
15) How many of Vader's limbs are cybernetic? How and when did he lose them?
16) Is Yoda a unique creature, or are there other of his species?
17) Are Jawas unique to Tatooine?
18) Is Force Lightning a common ability among Force users?
19) Are Jedi allowed to use the force to attack or counter-attack their opponents in battle? (this will be controversial, but just watch the movies then tell me!)
20) Is it possible to use force powers in the midst of a lightsaber duel?
21) Can lightsabers "cut through anything" or do some things stop them? (besides another lightsaber of course)
22) Is the Millennium Falcon too small to have a cloaking device?
23) Do lightsabers work when wet?
24) What was R2D2's origin?
25) Where were the Jedi headquartered? Did this headquarters survive the Jedi Purge?
26) What role did "Mandalorians" and "Clone Masters" play in the Clone Wars?
27) Who was Luke & Leia's mother?
28) How did Anakin "get into the suit"?
29) Were the Death Stars "brand new technology" when they were built, or just a much larger and new application of existing technology?

Personally I think they should just restart the EU continuity with the new completed saga (six movies as they appear on DVD) in mind. It seems to have worked for some comic book franchises, why not the Star Wars EU?

Now before you jump up and explain all of these to me, realize that you're using material outside to explain away contradictions. That's fine. Is it the job of the EU to explain away contradictions? Or is it to "expand" the story beyond what's told in the movies? I'm just saying that if there were no contradictions, you wouldn't need to write new stories to explain them away. Right?

Now here's some of the inter-movie possible contradictions (some could be explained as characters simply lying or being idiots):

1) When did Obi-Wan Kenobi serve Bail Organa during the clone wars?
2) When did Anakin say he wanted his son to have his lightsaber when he was old enough? And when did Owen Lars forbid this action?
3) When did we see Anakin demonstrate being "the greatest starpilot in the galaxy" and "a cunning warrior" and "a good friend." Granted, this is subjective.
4) Was Admiral Motti (the guy Vader chokes in ANH) around when the Jedi Knights served in the Republic?
5) Is the Dark Side stronger? (granted, this may be based on comments by Lucas that create the contradiction, not so much the movies themselves)
6) (not contradiction so much as oddity) Why do Owen, Beru, Obi-Wan and Anakin look so old in the Classic Trilogy? Why are Obi-Wan and Vader such relatively sluggish saber fighters in the classic trilogy against each other?
7) How is Luke's green lightsaber "much like [Anakin's]"? (Palpatine's line in ROTJ)
8) Was Nute Gunray betrayed by Darth Sideous 10 years before AOTC? And if so, why does he blindly trust him again in ROTS?
9) Did Vader really "help the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights"?

Now for some major ones within the EU that have problems with other EU sources:

1) How big is the "Grand Army of the Republic" and what does it consist of?
2) How big is the CIS's (Seperatist's) droid army?
3) How do lightsabers work? How does a Jedi Lightsaber differ from a Sith Lightsaber (if at all)?
4) How was Yoda able to hide on Dagobah? What was the origin of the "domain of evil" (the cave where Luke "sees Vader")... when and how did it originate?
5) What is the origin of the Sith?
6) Is the Jedi Order as old or older than the Old Republic?
7) How many Sith Lords achieved the power to cheat death? Who were they?


There's probably many more contradictions one can find. Apart from the official outside-of-movie answers from Lucas or Leeland Chee (which I respect), you can find them on several sites, which I could point you to, including the http://www.soulofthejedi.net fanfiction archive and http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ .


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Old 04-01-2006, 01:32 AM   #3
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Go Kurgan! Super post!

Yeah, there are tons of contradictions in the movies and much more and EU. I'd certainly love to watch all those, but I'll have to rent them. XP


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Old 04-01-2006, 05:23 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Commander Obi-Wan
Go Kurgan! Super post!

tell me about it lol i kinda knew there were some but not that many

thanks kurgan,

well i guess that answers my question lol


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Old 04-01-2006, 01:39 AM   #5
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Oh I forgot a most obvious ones (list #3), sorry about that:

30) Are Jedi allowed to marry and have children?
31) Do Sith use the title "Darth"?

For another inter-movie contradiction/inconsistency, compare the design and look of the Tantive IV in ROTS vs. in ANH. Also compare the incomplete "death star" in ROTS vs. the shape and design of the completed death star in ANH.


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Old 04-03-2006, 03:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jomaster
one thing that makes SW fiction so great for me is the fact that it all fits together so perfectly.
I know you don't mean it as a joke, and I'm not making fun of you, but that is hands down the funniest thing I have ever read at Lucasforums.

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Old 04-11-2006, 11:11 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jomaster
one thing that makes SW fiction so great for me is the fact that it all fits together so perfectly.
thanks,
jomaster
Whilst not perfect in any sense, the overall continuity of SW/EU isnt *too* bad at all... especially compared to other EU franchises (points at Trek EU) Not too long after the modern EU era kicked off(with the Thrawn Trilogy) Lucasfilm Licensing *employed* people to keep track of this type of stuff. As far as novels go especially, things gel together reasonably well. In the NJO, there was a conscious effort by authors and continuity people to tie as many loose threads together as they could and incorporate different arms of EU into lit-EU. Thus, characters like Kyle Katarn started appearing in books etc.

I myself wouldnt be too willing to mark off items listed by the mighty Kurgan as outright contradictions..... Alot of those questions should be prefaced with

a) from what you see in the movies
b) from EU sources

sometimes if a) cannot offer an answer, often b) can. As far as contradications are concerned, those *within* a) are very limited. Those between a) and b) and within b) are more numerous, but thanks to the NJO and Esssential Guides have been ironed out to a degree. Making so many different pieces of Lore fit together without retconning is almost impossible given the way the different arms of Lucasfilm licensing work and the fact that GL has the final say on anything - which counted not only for the PT but will be evident in the upcoming CHI and live action series...

Im looking forward to see what they come up with

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Old 04-11-2006, 12:55 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrotoy7
As far as contradications are concerned, those *within* a) are very limited. Those between a) and b) and within b) are more numerous, but thanks to the NJO and Esssential Guides have been ironed out to a degree. Making so many different pieces of Lore fit together without retconning is almost impossible given the way the different arms of Lucasfilm licensing work and the fact that GL has the final say on anything
My only complaint is that so many retcons are used to try and fit everything into the EU we end up things that are a complete hack and just make for a poorer overall story.

Why, oh why, do they feel the need to have everything crammed into the continuity? Would it be so awful to be more selective? Why can't things that outright conflict higher canon be potentially removed? Infinities isn't a bad thing!!

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Old 04-13-2006, 12:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
... Why can't things that outright conflict higher canon be potentially removed? Infinities isn't a bad thing!!
Infinities is the work of the DEVIL

I dont see the current amount of retconning as excessive, especially compared to the *massive* volume of SW content out there. Its just a bit of tweaking, some of it is actually quite clever...eg. the whole Fett/Mandalorian business


One upcoming title that promises to be interesting is the novel about the Death Star....a veritable retcon orgy it will be The DS is indeed one of the messiest topics in EU continuity-wise

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Old 04-13-2006, 02:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrotoy7
Infinities is the work of the DEVIL
Maybe the current stories are, but it is a good concept that could be applied in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrotoy7
I dont see the current amount of retconning as excessive, especially compared to the *massive* volume of SW content out there.
I don't know about that. I would guess that at least every pre-ROTS-release post-ROTJ story has (many) retcons. And some are downright awful.

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Old 04-13-2006, 07:18 PM   #11
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Agreed. Without retcons, the entire Thrawn Trilogy, which so many fans consider sacred next to the films themselves, would basically have to be thrown out. Dark Empire as well, plus the stories in Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina and Tales from Jabba's Palace. The Marvel Comics stories collected in "Classic Star Wars," as well. And yes, the Death Star stuff for sure... Jedi Academy Trilogy and Dark Saber. Even Shadows of the Empire takes a hit due to the Special Editions and ROTS. Stories portraying events immediately after the destruction of the Death Star II (Truce at Bakura IIRC, and probably many others) will be contradicted by the Special Editions.

Most of the stories have to contain some retcons because they build on and refer to prior EU stories. Of course that hasn't always been true. In the early days of the post-ROTJ EU a lot of the stories flat out contradicted each other, until most of the authors got together and agreed to honor each other's stories (examples: Leia and Han have one kid, but in another story they have twins... the retcon is that they had three kids; Leia in some early stories is already a very powerful Jedi second only to Luke, while in other stories she barely has any force ability at all, because she "doesn't have time for it" or some other BS; in some stories Han Solo is a major hero, while in others he's a bumbling idiot who has to be shown how to put on his own boots; in some stories Luke Skywalker is a mediocre Jedi, while half-trained lunatics and upstarts can kick his butt easily, while in others he's a demi-god who can practically rule the galaxy and defeat small armies single handed). The minimalism of the EU is also rather problematic, in that a handful of Star Destroyers or one crazed Admiral or "Dark Jedi" can threaten the "entire galaxy." Battles that decide the fate of the galaxy typically include less than a hundred ships. One could say that they are just trying to copy what was shown in the movies, but let's face it, budget constraints stopped Lucas from making a GALAXY WIDE CIVILIZATION look as big, grand and majestic as he wanted to in the classic trilogy. You can explain it by saying we're just seeing some small rebel faction that got lucky, and the gigantic battles of the clone wars are only hinted at. But the same minimalism takes over when you have EU authors insisting that the entire "Grand Army of the Republic" consisted of a few million clones (vs., amazingly, "quadrillions of droids" and yet miraculously, the clones are winning!). Some of this can be laid at Lucas' own feet of course (he has characters say 1.5 million "units" are being produced in Kamino's clone labs for the sale to the Republic and this is widely interpreted in the official literature as 1 unit = 1 soldier).

The retcons needed in one source may not be "massive" but over the entire EU yes, they really pile up. Without retcons, dozens of characters cease to exist (these lost Jedi and Sith are dead, and they can't come back in the Force, so they're gone, these ex-stormtroopers would be clones so their characters disappear, these Jedi council members we never saw or heard mentioned disappear, these clones produced by methods never shown or mentioned disappear, and thus the plots that surround these characters begin to fall apart).

That's why I say instead of trying to just keep putting band-aids all over the EU, just say it's all a bunch of legends and stories told around the camp fires by crusty old spacers and stuff after a few pints of lager, and restart it. Keep selling the old stuff as long as you want to, but restart the continuity fresh, with only the movies assumed as "true" as a foundation to build on.

Of course you have other problems, if Lucas is going to consider this TV series to be anything canon (it'll probably just be C-level, but I know some folks are hoping it'll be G-level just because Lucas is rumored to have a hand in the early episodes through writing credit or something), it'll probably introduce some contradictions of its own on the EU. Likewise with the CGI version of the Clone Wars series, if it's not exactly the same as the previously released animated series, it'll be one big contradiction. So look for more retcons!


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Old 04-13-2006, 09:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
The retcons needed in one source may not be "massive" but over the entire EU yes, they really pile up.
A good point. I wonder how many authors and game developers looked at what they had to build from or work into their story and had a "OMG I have to incorporate that??" response...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Of course you have other problems, if Lucas is going to consider this TV series to be anything canon (it'll probably just be C-level, but I know some folks are hoping it'll be G-level just because Lucas is rumored to have a hand in the early episodes through writing credit or something)
For some reason I seem to think that he is going to be involved on the producing side. He may start off the story though. Actually, do we know what technically makes something G-canon? Is it only something that has a story (all or parts) that come from Lucas? Or is just a production that Lucas controls (such as producing)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
it'll probably introduce some contradictions of its own on the EU.
Probably? Every time Lucas creates something new in Star Wars it invalidates something in the EU and thus requires a retcon.

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Old 04-14-2006, 11:19 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
For some reason I seem to think that he is going to be involved on the producing side. He may start off the story though. Actually, do we know what technically makes something G-canon? Is it only something that has a story (all or parts) that come from Lucas? Or is just a production that Lucas controls (such as producing)?
Generally I think it's only going to be G-canon if he claims it as his own. But most of us assume it only becomes that if he has writing credit. Because technically everything Star Wars has written somewhere "based on characters and situations by George Lucas" or "based on Star Wars by George Lucas" (sort of like how all Star Trek is "based upon Star Trek by Gene Roddenberry" even if it was made long after the great bird died). Produced isn't enough because he's produced stuff that only ended up as C-Level (Shadows of the Empire, Star Wars Holiday Special, iirc and possibly others).

Quote:
Probably? Every time Lucas creates something new in Star Wars it invalidates something in the EU and thus requires a retcon.
Well it depends. If he dances over certain areas he might be able to avoid contradiction, but I doubt it. He'll probably run roughshod over something, since we do have some statements about material between Episode III and IV. If he shows Palpatine but doesn't show his body rotting from using the Dark Side too much and transfering his soul into new adult cloned bodies from the Spaarti cylinders, that'll be a contradiction. If he shows Thrawn but doesn't show him as part of the Chiss exploring the "Unknown Regions" within the galaxy and becoming this awesome Grand Admiral, that could be a contradiction. If he shows anything with the Noghri that isn't by the book, etc. (and they are small assassins, not big hulking blue apes!).

And that's another thing, if he shows anything from Zahn's books or Dark Empire's backstory, would he go with the original versions (and contradict the current retcons out or coming out?) or would he go with the retconned versions (and everything would be "fine") or would he go with new versions? (and contradict even the new stuff about them).

Will he show Jorus C'boath come out of nowhere to get cloned and killed? Will he show "Garm Bel Ibis"? Will he show this Prince Xizor character?

Will he show Luke at all? (and if he does and puts him on adventures, boom, huge contradictions there unless it's just hanging out with his pals and racing his skyhopper for kicks in Beggar's Canyon). Will he show Kyle Katarn? (he'd have to be really careful on that one). Etc..

But yeah in essence I agree with you. I wouldn't trust Lucas to do it "by the book" and not invalidate something. There is really no era that is totally safe, except something "far in the future" (even the stories set way before the movies still repeat the same stuff endlessly... making the Republic, the Jedi and Sith Orders into some kind of eternal organizations in constant strife).


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Old 04-14-2006, 12:17 AM   #14
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You poeple are so god damn picky. It's fine. Jesus.

As for General Grievous (I notice Kurgan is spelling it correctly now ), you would think he would be extremely skilled seeing as how he has lightsabers from Jedi he killed.


Personally, I don't see what people are complaining about. On the whole, I think the EU does fine with contradictions. Any that come up, can easily be explained.
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Old 04-14-2006, 11:08 AM   #15
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StarWarsPhreak

Welcome to fandom! Get used to it... :P

Also I object to the term "poeple".

Quote:
As for General Grievous (I notice Kurgan is spelling it correctly now ), you would think he would be extremely skilled seeing as how he has lightsabers from Jedi he killed.
Good gravy, don't you know that in Star Wars they don't speak or write in english? You couldn't pronounce his "real name" if you tried! The Jedi he killed died of laughter, after hearing his smoker's cough and seeing his ridiculous outfit and contortionist mannerisms.

Quote:
Personally, I don't see what people are complaining about.
Bad writing, unimaginative ideas, cliched characters with cheesy dialouge, contrived storylines and deus ex machinas. And it's bad enough what we have to put up with from Lucas himself... at least he can be forgiven for creating Star Wars in the first place. These other guys and gals? Hmm...

Quote:
On the whole, I think the EU does fine with contradictions. Any that come up, can easily be explained.
It deals with them like comic book franchises. Oh read this new issue/series and just pretend that other stuff didn't happen like you remember it. Taking it to the next step and restarting it would be in keeping with this philosophy. They go to the well one too many times. I'm not asking for a "Crisis on Infinite Earths" Star Wars saga, just a restart of the EU line. I think that would be the best for the series. Nobody's life is at stake if the EU contradicts or even sucks hard, but I think it would be a good freshening of ideas for the "long haul." I mean if you were a Star Wars author, which would you rather do, spend your time fixing mistakes of other authors or having the freedom to create brand new stories, without fear that somebody else had already trampled through this territory and only allowed you a tiny bit to explain yourself? I'd personally be mad if I were forced to acknowledge every half-baked idea of people from the last 20 years in my stories and then get nailed by people on what I didn't get right, only to have some other author come along and invalidate what I just wrote. And some people like KJA can seem to avoid appearing to be hacks (look at the criticism he's recieved both in Star Wars and Dune), and yet who's ideas become officially gospel.

Anyway, what's funny to non-fans is how Star Wars fans think they can explain all the contradictions in the series, or how knowledgable they are of non-movie stuff to explain the complicated lore, that doesn't agree with itself. Just the other day I was having a conversation with another fan, and his interpretation was totally different. The average fan has no idea what the heck is going on, it's so confusing now.


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Old 04-19-2006, 02:28 PM   #16
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lolz... as much as I dislike the idea... Grievous going from badass to bronchitic was the work of Mace in the CW microseries. This was a retcon to fit in with GLs whim to have Grievous coughing(a recording studio joke) and also that GL wanted Anakin to be the entire focus of ROTS. It's all stated plainly in "The Making of ROTS" This being said, one shouldnt say that Grievous was totally incompetent before the Battle of Coruscant

I really dont see what the hang ups are about retconning. Its a necessary evil, for any expnasive fictional universe.

And yes, to a degree, the TV series will funk things up too But it's all part of the fun IMO

@Kurgan... surely you jest when you say that alot of EU should become "Tales told around a Campfire" Thats crazy talk !

Those who have read the NJO/ Dark Nest will have gotten some grasp of the work that was done to draw the many branches of EU together. eg. Jacen having trained with the Fallanassi. LFL and the authors involved in NJO really did an awesome job of tying together so many divergent bits of EU into something cohesive.

The Ssi-Ruuvi, The Farlanders, Kyle Katarn, The Nightsisters, The Hapans etc etc, all had a role. Since the NJO described a conflict that spanned the entire galaxy, it was only appropriate that all these things get woven into it. For someone who had read EU since day dot, it made reading the NJO quite exciting. It seemed like all the authors were "on the same page" in many respects, allowing for story arc and character development over many books with varying authors.

Jorus C'Boathe appears prominently in Outbound Flight. I highly doubt his clone will appear in the TV series !! I loved how Outboubd Flight was subtly tied into the NJO and "Rogue Planet". Great to see Vergere get mentioned

Garm Bel Iblis is a definite possibility though for the TV series. He was mentioned in the ROTS novelisation as one of the "Rebel Senators". We'll have to wait n see

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Old 04-19-2006, 03:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Astrotoy7
lolz... as much as I dislike the idea... Grievous going from badass to bronchitic was the work of Mace in the CW microseries. This was a retcon to fit in with GLs whim to have Grievous coughing(a recording studio joke) and also that GL wanted Anakin to be the entire focus of ROTS. It's all stated plainly in "The Making of ROTS" This being said, one shouldnt say that Grievous was totally incompetent before the Battle of Coruscant
Another explanation was that Grevious was shown to be less than ideal so that it was clear that cyborg technology was far from perfect. This what happened to Vader and the resulting repairs were clearly a hinderance and not a help.

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I really dont see what the hang ups are about retconning. Its a necessary evil, for any expnasive fictional universe.
Sure, but the question is whether all previous stories are necessary for inclusion and thus retconning. I'm saying that SW EU would probably benefit from being a bit more selective (especially regarding older, pre-PT stories) with what it includes in the overall canon storyline. What is so bad about removing some stuff from the timeline? Is having to come up with potentially poor retcons to shoehorn every little (and potentially poor) thing into the story better than picking and chosing the things that fit the best and are most recent (or other criteria)?

I would suggest that it isn't.

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And yes, to a degree, the TV series will funk things up too But it's all part of the fun IMO
IIRC you were one of those who were up in arms about the CW cartoon and LOE contradicting each other.

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It seemed like all the authors were "on the same page" in many respects, allowing for story arc and character development over many books with varying authors.
However, there were many complaints about inconsistent character portrayals and development, dropped story archs, and other incosistencies from author to author. IIRC many authors did not read the other books, and went directly from notes and so on.

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Old 04-20-2006, 08:38 PM   #18
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I reject your reality, and substitute my own.

I guess I'm just not a diehard writer or literature person. I read for entertainment, not for critizing the use of pronouns and thingies.

"Oh my god, Luke's hairstyle is not the same as in the movie!"

From someone who just reads for entertainment, the Expanded Universe is just fine, thank you.
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Old 04-21-2006, 01:21 AM   #19
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I reject your reality, and substitute my own.

I guess I'm just not a diehard writer or literature person. I read for entertainment, not for critizing the use of pronouns and thingies.

"Oh my god, Luke's hairstyle is not the same as in the movie!"

From someone who just reads for entertainment, the Expanded Universe is just fine, thank you.
Ah so you wouldn't be upset if the EU was restarted. Excellent! Then you're really on our side. (or the side of people who think it could be better than it is now, since I don't think everyone wants it restarted like me!)

A lot of the EU fans are upset with the contradictions and need for retcons. They probably ultimately wished that Lucas had walked on eggshells and make his Prequels fit with "established" continuity and affirmed rather than ignored EU in the SE changes (EU fans were super excited when they learned he was putting "the Outrider" in ANH and Coruscant in ROTJ for example, but since then they don't seem to have been very pleased with what made it in and what didn't). A restart would benefit everyone, except the people who desperately want everything to fit into one giant melting pot. There's folks who want Star Tours to be canon, for example, imagine that!


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Old 04-21-2006, 02:08 AM   #20
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I'd rather just enjoy the books in and of themselves, and not get hung up about whats continuity, canon, or whater. That said:

No, I would not want the entire eu restarted. There are two many plotlines that I am attached to that I would not want to see ended just because it makes things fit in a little better with the movies.

Yes, I am somewhat annoyed by the excessive amounts of unnecessary retcons. I think they either require certain ridiculous suspension of belief (glove of darth vader series for instance, it would seem it should have some lasting effect on the galaxy, not have everything quickly reversed and never mentioned again), or completely changes the significance or scale or whatever of the story. What I would rather they do is take things that fit horribly, and remove them from canon. Better yet, they should just let them fall into obscurity (as in never be referenced), and never say whether it is continuity or not. That would let fans who can think of a way it fits nicely argue/discuss with fans who dont, and everyone could reach their own conclusion and be happy (except those who cant handle ambiguity).


Yeah, you'd think the Emperor had come back to life or something.
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Old 04-21-2006, 03:44 PM   #21
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Uh... I want the Expanded Universe restarted because I said it's fine?

The hell kind of logic is that?
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Old 04-22-2006, 04:29 PM   #22
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The logic is that you don't CARE about continuity, only about being entertained, so it would not matter to you if the EU was completely restarted.

It seems the people who object to a restart do so because they like the EU continuity how it is and don't want it changed, but rather preserved. Restarting the EU would mean you'd get new stories in Star Wars, so you wouldn't lose that. Unless that's not what you meant. I'm sure you would still be able to buy the old books, it's just that they would be given the same status as "infinities" in favor of the new EU (if such a thing ever happened... I'm just saying I'd like to see it happen).

It really comes down to two questions... does it matter to you that the novels, comics, cartoons, games or whatever material you are consuming is considered part of the "official timeline of Star Wars" or not? And the question of does it matter to you whether or not this other material conflicts with the "reality" presented by the films or not. If neither of those matter to you, then what objection would you have to the EU being restarted? If anything it would allow the artists under Lucas greater creative freedom, and give fans more material to consume and argue over. Best of all it would give them an opportunity to start off on the right foot presenting a more coherent expanded storyline of the Star Wars universe beyond the movies.

As it is it seems the mission of the EU writers is "make it fit" and so they're doing the retcons and new stories. I'm saying better to just restart the EU, since it would do the job better. It wouldn't stop people from enjoying the previous EU stories, unless they can only enjoy things that are part of the "official timeline."


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Old 04-22-2006, 04:41 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
It really comes down to two questions... does it matter to you that the novels, comics, cartoons, games or whatever material you are consuming is considered part of the "official timeline of Star Wars" or not? And the question of does it matter to you whether or not this other material conflicts with the "reality" presented by the films or not. If neither of those matter to you, then what objection would you have to the EU being restarted?
Neither of those matter to me, but I would still object to the EU being restarted. If they restarted the EU, they couldn't (well, maybe they could, but they probably wouldn't) continue to build off existing continuity, which is a loss I would miss.


Yeah, you'd think the Emperor had come back to life or something.
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Old 04-22-2006, 06:36 PM   #24
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That's some pretty retarded logic. I said it's fine as it is. Therefor, there is no need for a restart. Because I said it was fine in its current form. Meaning there is no need for a restart. I don't see how saying it's fine means I want it restarted. Let's hope that was clear enough for you.

And I've said what I wanted to say, the Expanded Universe is fine as it is, debating is futile.
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Old 04-23-2006, 01:20 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarWarsPhreak
..And I've said what I wanted to say, the Expanded Universe is fine as it is, debating is futile.
Im with the Phreak on this one

lolz...restarting EU... how is that possibly feasible or practical ?? Crazy!! Kurgz, Im sure you're registered at TFN - go say that there!! I'd love to read the tumult such an outragous theory would cause

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan @ TFN "Beyond the Films" Forum
Bah!! They shoud re-start EU. Theres been too much retcons, the NJO sucks and GL has lost the plot !! BTW - The Vong=Species 8472 *runs*


@Prime - "up in arms" is far too dramatic a description!! It was a little annoying to come across that in the pre ROTS buzz, but hey - thems the breaks

But, at the end of it all what it comes down to is, I enjoy reading/watching/playing SW EU. I think Ive been exposed to much of what been put out(exc. recent comix ) and still look forward to spending more time in this universe, inconsistencies 'n' all

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Old 04-25-2006, 03:43 AM   #26
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Post uh noes teh r bean attacked!!!11

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Originally Posted by Astrotoy7
Im with the Phreak on this one

lolz...restarting EU... how is that possibly feasible or practical ?? Crazy!! Kurgz, Im sure you're registered at TFN - go say that there!! I'd love to read the tumult such an outragous theory would cause
While your caricature of what I said is actually fairly close to the truth (fair enough) I don't see what's so "crazy" or "impractical" about it. All you have to do is have Lucas issue a memo, the writers finish the book/series they're on and the EU restarts. Fresh stories from now on, meetings to insure minimized conflicts between writers, strategies for new serieses like normal, etc. You already have the Holocron to maintain continuity, they just now create a new database for the new stuff. Other franchises of have done it.

They can continue to sell the (now Infinities) old novels/comics/games, that's no problem. Star Trek has been selling non-canon stuff for almost forty years, doesn't seem to stop it from making money!

Obviously it'll piss off hardcore fans of the old continuity who still want their stuff to be canon, but oh well. They can thrown bones to them now and then with a character or a story inspired by something in the old. A wink and a nod and a smile works wonders at attracting old fans to the new stuff. Look at the new TMNT, or Battlestar Galactica, or Doctor Who (though this one is probably a bad example because it's technically still part of the same continuity, not a restart or re-imagining, but still). If the new direction it goes in sucks, it'll hurt the franchise. But if it's good it could be the best shot in the arm the EU has gotten in a long time, one that's sorely needed in my opinion. I mean maybe they are getting drastic. Why else would they start this NJO thing, and then cut it short and start a new series set in the far flung future?

Realistically though I'm betting a solution like this won't be tried unless Lucas determines that they're losing their customer base and get desperate to increase sales. If the TV series projects flop that might be something they will be more inclined to do. Star Wars is such a cash cow they may be able to "do no wrong" but now that the prequels are over (and all but the last one didn't seem that great overall) they may feel it's necessary. I can only hope (and continue to piss off people by sharing my opinion, oh well!).


Quote:
But, at the end of it all what it comes down to is, I enjoy reading/watching/playing SW EU. I think Ive been exposed to much of what been put out(exc. recent comix ) and still look forward to spending more time in this universe, inconsistencies 'n' all

mtfbwya
I enjoy it as well. But I laugh and shake my head when I come across people claiming there ARE NO INCONSISTENCIES and that I must be some kind of looney obsessed fan if I don't agree with them. If you can enjoy it even with inconsistencies, MORE power to ya, but it often occurs that the people most upset are the ones willing to spend time trying to explain them all away. At least a streamlining of the expanded universe might help towards diminishing the inconsistencies. Anyway, you guys need not worry, I'm not in charge of Lucas Liscensing or anybody at the ranch. Unlike SuperShadow (cough, bs, cough) I don't have a personal relationship with The Flannelled One (tm) so your EU is safe.... for now.

Edit: and judging by the number of typos I'm running off, it must be time for me to get off the computer and get to bed! G'night folks...


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Old 04-25-2006, 06:40 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
....All you have to do is have Lucas issue a memo, the writers finish the book/series they're on and the EU restarts...
wow...that's a pretty big "all you have to do".... Might as well ask for ep 7-9 while we're there

Comparing Trek and SW EU is almost blasphemous Rodenberry issued no such decree when TNG or the films started. It actually would have done the Trek universe some good, as far as contunuity goes

Another part of the "SW:Reloaded" theory that sucks is that it somewhat devalues some of the really great work that has been done... especially by people like Luceno and Stover(IMO). In effect by turning such a massive existing body of work into something less than it is, you're making the SW EU like ST EU....boo !!

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Old 04-25-2006, 03:40 PM   #28
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Another part of the "SW:Reloaded" theory that sucks is that it somewhat devalues some of the really great work that has been done...
Sure. But it would also get rid of some of the god-awful crap that has also been done, and does not fit.


Not that I think the EU needs a full restart, but that would sure be one nice benefit...

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Old 04-30-2006, 06:24 PM   #29
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Quote:
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wow...that's a pretty big "all you have to do".... Might as well ask for ep 7-9 while we're there
No, we wouldn't. A couple of emails from the Ranch, hello?

Lucas communicates with his people all the time, how do you think they get anything done? Or a video conference call, or a letter, whatever.

Making Episodes 7-9 would costs hundreds of millions of dollars (to make them as films on par with the Prequels) at least a decade to put them together. Restarting the EU is just a state of being. I'm not saying re-create the entire EU, the EU itself wasn't created overnight, it's been building since the late 80's. This is a ridiculous objection.

Quote:
Comparing Trek and SW EU is almost blasphemous Rodenberry issued no such decree when TNG or the films started. It actually would have done the Trek universe some good, as far as contunuity goes
What, that the continuity was restarted? He issued a decree that the non-live action Star Trek material was non-canon. But that didn't stop it from being made. It's still being sold and makes lots of money. Plenty of Trek fans love it, even though none of it is canon. I'm saying look outside the Star Wars box once in awhile to see what other franchises have been able to make work.

Quote:
Another part of the "SW:Reloaded" theory that sucks is that it somewhat devalues some of the really great work that has been done... especially by people like Luceno and Stover(IMO). In effect by turning such a massive existing body of work into something less than it is, you're making the SW EU like ST EU....boo !!

mtfbwya
So if a work isn't considered canon it is "devalued" in your mind? So to you, it matters a great deal if a work is considered part of the official timeline. Your enjoyment of it decreases if it isn't? That's interesting.

So when you read Thrawn Trilogy now, is it less enjoyable since maybe 35% of it has been retconned? When you read it you're not supposed to consider those parts canon, but look to newer sources to explain away the inconsistencies with the prequels and special editions now.

Did you enjoy Star Wars Infinities? It's not canon, after all.

Anyway, my point is that unless your enjoyment of a work is dependant on its being canon, this really isn't a valid objection to it being decanonized by itself. Other franchises have non-canon works that are very popular and profitable among the fanbase.


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Old 04-25-2006, 03:35 AM   #30
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Quote:
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That's some pretty retarded logic. I said it's fine as it is. Therefor, there is no need for a restart. Because I said it was fine in its current form. Meaning there is no need for a restart. I don't see how saying it's fine means I want it restarted. Let's hope that was clear enough for you.
Well if that's what you meant you shouldn't confuse me by saying you only care about entertainment, not continuity. So you DO care, fine, I'll leave you alone then.

Quote:
And I've said what I wanted to say, the Expanded Universe is fine as it is, debating is futile.
Perhaps for some of us... "fine" is an opinion based on taste after all. I think the fact that they need retcons at all indicates things are not all "fine" on the continuity end. This is just one more "radical" (but feasible) solution I propose, one that has been done in other franchises.


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Old 04-23-2006, 02:10 PM   #31
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I don't really thing that its a question if wether the stormstroopers of Episode 4 are the same from episode 2 and 3. A clone really only has about 20-25 years of usefulness, and ten of those years are training. Episode 2 to 4 happened through about a 21 year time frame, which means no the stormtroopers are not the same clone, unless they made new clone, but according to battlefront 2 the kaminos rebeled against the empire so no new clones could be made.

This all explains to me how the stormtroopers lost the ground battle of endor so easily


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Old 04-25-2006, 03:33 AM   #32
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Well I think Lucas's intentions override the plot of some video game, but that's me (and something for the Holocron to work out). Lucas insists that the Stormtrooper who bangs his head on the door in ANH he intends to be a clone of Jango.

Now that may not mean this is a (biologically) 60 year old man, it may simply mean this is a clone created from the genetic stock collected from Jango Fett.

I don't see how that explains anything to do with the Battle of Endor, but if it works for you, fine...


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Old 04-25-2006, 01:10 PM   #33
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I personally believe they should scrap all the EU written before the prequels came out, well infact not all of it just most of the post ROTJ EU that the new movies have proven to be wrong.


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Old 04-25-2006, 04:03 PM   #34
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You will all be destroyed for your heresy.
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Old 04-28-2006, 03:21 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarWarsPhreak
You will all be destroyed for your heresy.
quoted for emphasis

lolz, "restart EU", even in a hypothetical sense would ruin more than it would achieve. Thank goodness Kurgz is in no way affiliated or endorsed by Lucasfilm Licensing

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Old 05-10-2006, 03:03 PM   #36
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You will all be destroyed for your heresy.
With what? I hope it is with the nearly indestructable starfigher-sized superweapon that can destroy entire solar systems and can fly right through the bridge of a star destroyer and not take any damage!

w00t!

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Old 05-09-2006, 06:08 PM   #37
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man, that was a long thread (skipped most of it so I could post):
quote kurgan-
7) How is Luke's green lightsaber "much like [Anakin's]"? (Palpatine's line in ROTJ)

Luke lost his 'green' (was blue/green in the original film) when Vader cut off his hand in ESB, so Luke undoubtedly built another one (either from memory (genetics ???) or thru guidence of the force).

And I was looking for a thread about the final 3 episodes (they'll be the best of the franchise) and wondered why those cute little 'force blocking' creatures we're never mentioned in the previous 6 films.



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Old 05-09-2006, 08:00 PM   #38
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That's a fine explanation, but the fact that his lightsaber changes color is a gaffe, it's supposed to be blue always, until he loses it on cloud city and builds a new one that's green. In the original movie it was blue/white, it only turned green in the special edition and then in the 2004 edition they fixed it in places but generally screwed up all the saber colors (Vader's appears violent/pink or even orange in a few scenes). This is not normal lightsaber behavior of course, because it didn't happen in previous versions of ESB, ROTJ, or the prequels.

The "final 3 episodes" won't be made, and they don't exist really, except in people's fruitful imaginations. The series ends with ROTJ (Episodes 1-6). Ysalamiri were made up for the EU (Heir to the Empire) and they're supposed to come from some remote planet, so they're a "secret." It's because it wasn't Lucas' idea but something Tim Zahn came up with.


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Old 05-10-2006, 05:19 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Kurgan
That's a fine explanation, but the fact that his lightsaber changes color is a gaffe, it's supposed to be blue always, until he loses it on cloud city and builds a new one that's green. In the original movie it was blue/white, it only turned green in the special edition and then in the 2004 edition they fixed it in places but generally screwed up all the saber colors (Vader's appears violent/pink or even orange in a few scenes). This is not normal lightsaber behavior of course, because it didn't happen in previous versions of ESB, ROTJ, or the prequels.

The "final 3 episodes" won't be made, and they don't exist really, except in people's fruitful imaginations. The series ends with ROTJ (Episodes 1-6). Ysalamiri were made up for the EU (Heir to the Empire) and they're supposed to come from some remote planet, so they're a "secret." It's because it wasn't Lucas' idea but something Tim Zahn came up with.
Thats really sad as I've read all 9 novels plus 'splinter of the minds eye' and feel NO closure the way the franchise currently is. Why another set of twins unless there's another battle somewhere ahead in time ??? It makes no sense to me that an Empire that spans thousands of years completely collapses in the span of a few years, and without a second thought of the people out in the fringes of the galaxy doing the work of the empire.



'Never tell me the odds'
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Old 05-10-2006, 03:33 PM   #40
swphreak
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I'll throw my indestructible Sun Crusher micromachine through your head.

Why are we even discussing this? The idea of "restarting" an entire universe is just silly. We can't "restart" our history, why should we do that for Star Wars?

Kurgan's posts are too long. I know, let's restart his history so he hates to write!
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