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Old 07-22-2006, 03:20 PM   #1
Apocalypse|TFL
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How could YOU make this game any worse!

Seriously guys, how can this game be any worse than what it is right now?

The space skirmish has been utterly destroyed, Skilled people will no longer get any joy from this game. I played a few games tonight, gave Petro the benefit of the doubt Yet Again! and low and behold they have screwed it even more than 1.4 did.

Lets take a look....

Rebs own Tech 1,2,3,4 but not as easily,5

From the word go, Empire are screwed because of the x-wings speed and firepower. Need a mine?? Go get the one with turret next to it. Buy the turret first (you can afford it cos you got plenty of money at the beginning now) and the Empire lose cos they can't get near the mine quick enough to contest the turret being built.

Tech 2, well this is just silly. Han still owns Boba and the vettes and Nebs make the x-wings redundant. 1 Vette and 1 Neb will own 2 Acc's with average micro skills.

Tech 3, Reb win here for no other reason than the Empire just have nothing to put to use. Vader sucks in space cos he is so ridiculously slow.

Tech 4, Rebs just outshine Emp here but not by much and thats only cos the Empire's Broadsides still smack the ****e out of a reb station. Chances are though, you'll never get to broadsides.

Tech 5, Rebs are unstoppable, With MonCals coupled with a few vettes to keep the bombers at bay plus the very nicely powered Ion cannon to knock out either the station or ships.

Rebellion win, unless you are playing really stupid people (and we know there are some)

So, Petro congratulations on screwing a game twice in a row (1.4 and 1.5) How you could even think this was a balanced game is simply beyond me. There those diehards and fan boys who still play online, but assure you that the calibre of people playing has dropped immensely. This game is no longer worth a damn and there are sooooo many people who will agree with me.

My prediction for FoC (and please archive this so I can gloat when it comes true) The game will sell well cos it's star wars. The single player campaign will exposed to be below average and nothing new, the online skirmish will be just as dreadful as EaW is now. More bugs, more syncs, more imbalances (They can't balance this one, god knows how they will balance the new one - I can see it now, The SSD will be wiped out everytime by a pirate fighter......) more connection problems and the game will get worse over the next 5 patches. Good job.

I'm done with this game.


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Old 07-22-2006, 03:45 PM   #2
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So what you're trying to say is, that you lost a game? Never heard of the Tartan cruiser? The last time I looked, they were still pretty good at riping through fighters and vettes.

Patches change the game and it brings with it a new learning curve sometimes. I'm having to try out new things in Dawn of War as their latest patch really has made incredible changes to rush tactics - and rightly so.

People want to be more involved in combat and fighter dog fights early on will help this. Why not give the Empire a go and just see how balanced things now are.

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Old 07-22-2006, 05:11 PM   #3
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Tartans get wiped out by nebs without a second thought, and the results of the dogfights are scripted, when enemy fighters engage they just dance for a bit until the fight is resolved, there is no skill whatsoever in deciding the outcome of a dogfight.

The games i played tonight, I was Empire for most but 1 game. I tend to choose the underdog race when i play games for a better challenge but this time round Empire are just whipping boys and nothing more.


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Old 07-22-2006, 10:52 PM   #4
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Wink

Dude, not trying to flame or anything but the balancing is FINE. Here are some reasons as to why it's fine.

1. you just have to build more TIEs than they do X-wings, TIE fighters only cost 300 credits last I checked and X-wings like 500. TIEs may be weak but in greater numbers they can kill a station if you have enough.

2. Acclamators can own a nebulon B-Frigate if used well enough, heck maybe even two of them.

3. Tartans have an initial advantage over Corellian Corvettes because of the power to weapons ability vs power to engines.

So, there you go, hope this helps
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Old 07-23-2006, 05:45 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by ImpElite
Dude, not trying to flame or anything but the balancing is FINE. Here are some reasons as to why it's fine.
Your entitled to your opinion, and Im certainly not going to take it as a flame.

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Originally Posted by ImpElite
1. you just have to build more TIEs than they do X-wings, TIE fighters only cost 300 credits last I checked and X-wings like 500. TIEs may be weak but in greater numbers they can kill a station if you have enough.
Take alderaan's defense for a great example; If your reb, all you need to do is use the speed boost on the x-wings and head straight for the turrets where the 3 mines are, If done right, Rebs can have total map control in the 1st 2 minutes, why? Empire can't get to the mines quick enough and by the time they do, the turret is built or being built and then just decimates the fighters along with the xwings. So, 1 minute into the game Rebs have 7 mines while Emp have just 1. Don't you think thats just a little unfair?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImpElite
2. Acclamators can own a nebulon B-Frigate if used well enough, heck maybe even two of them.
In a 1v1 situation your right, but few people are going to send in a lone Neb b to face an acc with it's bomber squad. Vette + Neb will always win over an Acc and tartan.

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Originally Posted by ImpElite
3. Tartans have an initial advantage over Corellian Corvettes because of the power to weapons ability vs power to engines.
Yes but your forgetting the change in the patch. If you start spamming tartans, I'll just start spamming Neb's which decimate Tartans horrifically.

They should never have messed with the units from 1.3 and instead should have concentrated on making the game that much enjoyable to play, sort out the lobby system and the much hated buddy system (Which might I add, has been screamed about since release and 5 patches later- nothing has been done)

Honestly, I want to meet the people Petro are listening to cos I have no idea why they have done what they have done.


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Old 07-23-2006, 12:25 AM   #6
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im with ya apocalypse, this game has utterly been destroyed. ACC cant defend for them selves against nebs anymore, because for some reason the devs thought having ACC and VSD 2-3 squads of bomber is unbalance...thought wrong. Most skilled players are gone and only diehards and fan boys who cant defend for themselves are controlling the game. i say stop listen to ppl that want something changed with units! We clearly see that its ruining the game. I say start listening to ppl that want things done to MP itself thats not about units.


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Old 07-23-2006, 06:39 AM   #7
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Well, I never updated since the 1.2 patch (however I do consider the update message annoying). I also never play online, I hate gamespy and I will never use it. If there is a way to play online (not LAN or anything like that) without useing gamespy please tell me. Apat from that, I always fix the units myself so I probably can't play online even with the right patch. I also don't feel like doing all the modding all over again, not sure if I have to, but just in case. So my finetuned version is harldy broken, so there's no need for me to fix it.

And I probably wait a little while before getting FOC, read the forum posts about it to see how it turn out. I'm affraid it's going to seriously overpower the pirates and that the pirates will have the biggest baddest guns. And we all know that privilege belongs to the Empire. If anything, the pirates should be the weakest faction if you purely look at military strength.
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Old 07-23-2006, 01:25 PM   #8
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I havent played the new patch yet, but I believe apoc may just be right, the Empire has no real speedy unit in tech one which leaves them at a huge disadvantage. Sure the TIEs are cheaper so you can spam make them but by then the X-Wings will have captured mines with turrents and all your TIEs become cannon fodder.

The balance is simple, REPLACE X-wings in Tech 1 with Z-95s. That way both Empire and Rebels go at the same speed and its more equalized. Then in tech 2 rebs can get x-wings back, but by then they are redudant.

If you make the change like I suggested, then it corrects a lot of the later game unbalances. Tech 1 now causes a domino affect as it screws up the rest of the levels because from the start the Rebels get the advantage. With my fix you get a running chance.

And isnt it just ridiculous? You would think the Empire would own throughout the first 4 levels, just because! I mean realistically the Rebels are rebels they arent supposed to be powerful enough to stand up to the Galactic Empire. But w/e I usually play land so I dont mind so much the change.


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Old 07-23-2006, 02:27 PM   #9
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I did that too. I though it would balance the game nicely, and it did. Apart from that, I aam currently making some minor changes so I learn how to mod. Like turning the torpedoes blue (not quite perfect yet, but maybe somebody else has a better view), the missiles now look like the original torpedoes. Also torpedoes and missiles no longer penetrate the shields (but I am going to increase torpedo damage). At the same time I am trying to split up all the files, as well as recalculating shield and hull strenght to match those in XWA. Actually I try to make everything more like their counterparts in XWA. I'm not sure of whether I should release it or not, I only use the game's models (I suck at modelling), but I think I just might release it anyway.
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Old 07-25-2006, 03:22 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by jedi3112
I did that too. I though it would balance the game nicely, and it did. Apart from that, I aam currently making some minor changes so I learn how to mod. Like turning the torpedoes blue (not quite perfect yet, but maybe somebody else has a better view), the missiles now look like the original torpedoes. Also torpedoes and missiles no longer penetrate the shields (but I am going to increase torpedo damage). At the same time I am trying to split up all the files, as well as recalculating shield and hull strenght to match those in XWA. Actually I try to make everything more like their counterparts in XWA. I'm not sure of whether I should release it or not, I only use the game's models (I suck at modelling), but I think I just might release it anyway.
Jeez this patch is getting hammered. I havent installed it yet but the only saving grace for the Imperials, I thought, was the volume of TIEs your capital ships spawned. As for reducing the tartans power to weapons time, that is pretty crap. They already have half the number of weapons of a Corvette. How about fixing the reduction of shield power. I think that is pretty excessive.

As for your idea Jedi, I did exactly that over the past month. researched all the stats from the Xwing/Tie/XvT/XWA games and modded the game to match this. I used a cost formula to find a true cost and factored in the special abilities and squadrons carried. Im very happy with it becasue i find it is really balanced...and starfighters actually do something other than die. I didnt change torpedoes blue but I did make missiles hit shields. I increased torpedoes to 40. I am no programmer either and just recycled models to create the VSD II and ISD II and Light Mon Cal. Anyway this is getting off topic. If I find out how to post them I will chuck them on file front, including my list of changes and comparison stats from XWA. Might save you alot of work.

Just one last thing; why not get rid of turrets all together. Then it just becomes who has the better military muscle. Turrets can make a huge difference, especially as stated on a map like Alderaan. Imagine that map without turrets. Imps would have a bit more of a chance.
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Old 07-23-2006, 05:41 PM   #11
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Oooooooh!!! Replacing X-wings with Z-95s would certainly help balance it out! (not a sarcastic remark BTW lol ) Good idea!
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Old 07-24-2006, 10:21 AM   #12
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1.05 is terrible , and what annoys me is that i predicted the whole mess a good 2 months ago when they had the idea of tier 2 corvs and tartans.

Im not going to wait for 1.06

thats what I said for 1.04 and they made a total hash out of that
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Old 07-24-2006, 10:39 AM   #13
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If you think the game sucks so bad, then stop playing it. It's not like anyone's holding a gun to your head.


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Old 07-24-2006, 10:46 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Darth Anarch
If you think the game sucks so bad, then stop playing it. It's not like anyone's holding a gun to your head.
if someoen was, id rather get shot. And he said he quit playing it, and for a fact im playing more BFII than E@W


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Old 07-24-2006, 11:37 AM   #15
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I must say i don't like 1.05 either. If two teams with decent skills face off, the rebs win. And it's still a Neb vs. Acc spam, even more so than in 1.04.
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Old 07-24-2006, 11:37 AM   #16
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Isn't there anywhere you can get the older patches? With an older patch it should solve the problems. But you still may have to modify the game quite a bit.
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Old 07-24-2006, 12:13 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by jedi3112
Isn't there anywhere you can get the older patches? With an older patch it should solve the problems. But you still may have to modify the game quite a bit.
I don't think so. But if you play online more with patch 1.5 you get used to it.
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Old 07-24-2006, 12:18 PM   #18
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Yes it's possible to find older patches, especially if you keep the set up files in your EaW folder (like I do).

I guess people all have their opinions, I enjoy this patch and I find it quite easy to destroy X-wings with my ties. Even playing against a good opponent I can usually wipe out their X-wings with my mass produced ties hehe. It works well you just have to think like the enemy and bring in ties wherever the X's are coming from.

But, once tech 2 arises, then it's another different strategy because if you don't have mines, you're in trouble for countering Vettes and Nebs. Otherwise, a couple Accs and Tartans will surely wipe out the Nebs and Vettes. You just have to know your gameplan before you get F'ed up real bad.

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Old 07-24-2006, 01:28 PM   #19
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if they can go back to the 3rd patch with a few things from 4th patch,like bug fixes, and not putting in anything from the 5th patch. I mean nothing like tech 2 tarts,vettes or the reduced spawning of fighters and bombers for ACC and VSD, then the game can be very good once again.


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Old 07-25-2006, 12:47 PM   #20
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I now figured out I screwed up. Yes, the rebel starting units are Z-95s, but they can still build X-Wings with Starbase level 1 (eventhough the fighters file says they need starbase level 2) and they can't build the Z-95 at tech 1. Apart from that, none of my home made units work in skirmish, not even my modified corvette. The changes on all the other units are effective in skirmish. And the units DO work in GC. With default settings the rebels are delayed long enough though.

Oh, and I am almost finished with changing the stats of all the ships to match those of XWA. Still need some balancing and changing the firerates of the marauder, but I can't find the marauder anywhere in the Hardpoint files, and I also can't find the stats in the marauder file. Apart from that, I might be the first using an entirely new file system. At least I haven't seen any mods with seperated files yet.
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Old 07-25-2006, 09:01 PM   #21
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Jedi, the stats for Marauders and Broadsides are in corvette XML. Their weapon data is also there. I dont think they have any hardpoints.

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Old 07-25-2006, 09:02 PM   #22
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DarthMaulUK mentioned Dawn of War and others are dreading the arrival of the FOC pirates. I can see them being exactly like what happened with the latest race in the DoW expansion....They owned everything. It attracts people to try the game and therefore buy it but after the intial onslaught the inevitable patches are released to reign them in. At least with computers you can do this; if as i suspect DarthMaulUK played the table top version of DoW he would probably agree that every time a book for a new race came out they were the latest and greatest. It encourages people to buy into it because they all want the advantage. I cant blame them but it doesnt make for balanced play.

I really disagree with 1.5 reducing Empires starting squadrons to 2. 2 Tie squadrons vs 2 Xwing squadrons is totally unfair...thats 600 value to 1000 value. At least with three it was close.

As for my mod Jedi, I didnt worry about tweaking the ships for balance; the balance is in the value. A Star Destroyer is awesome, but its also expensive and can't be everywhere at once.
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Old 07-26-2006, 08:13 AM   #23
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Red face

It is possible that the new game will fix the balance with the Empire getting more fighters and stuff. It will be interesting to see where the balance goes in skirmish in FoC. Imagine an SSD in skirmish.......
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Old 07-26-2006, 09:56 AM   #24
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If you think the game sucks so bad, then stop playing it. It's not like anyone's holding a gun to your head.
In my case, thats true. The only reason mines still installed is because i co-lead a mod for it >_<

I used to play multiplayer a bit, but with the release of 1.4 and 1.5, ive just decided its not worth being constantly slaughtered as Empire.



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Old 07-26-2006, 10:38 AM   #25
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With balance im fed up. It doesnt take 5 patches to get balance right. With the fun element im disappointed. Corvs and tarts were fun in tier 1 . only having them at tier 2 is no fun since tarts become useless.

And why are people saying "new strategies" with 1.05. . The Tier 2 in EaW is exactly the same as tier 2 in 1.03 and 1.04. Only difference now is that Tier 1 is so ridiculously boring to play out, that people move up a tier.
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Old 07-26-2006, 12:03 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by P5yNerGy|TFL
With balance im fed up. It doesnt take 5 patches to get balance right. With the fun element im disappointed. Corvs and tarts were fun in tier 1 . only having them at tier 2 is no fun since tarts become useless.

And why are people saying "new strategies" with 1.05. . The Tier 2 in EaW is exactly the same as tier 2 in 1.03 and 1.04. Only difference now is that Tier 1 is so ridiculously boring to play out, that people move up a tier.
ya, for me there is no "new" strategies. You really cant do anything with fighters, u cant control what they do in dogfights. Only strat that i know for tier 1 is bombing rush, yay a nice slow death for ur SS >_<.


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Old 07-26-2006, 07:42 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by P5yNerGy|TFL
And why are people saying "new strategies" with 1.05 .
Who in their right mind is saying this? I would like to know so I can slap some sense into them. There is actually now less strategy since at tech 1 your options are more limited. I guess this is not the same as having "new strategies" but if they think spawning the most number of fighters or rushing to the turrets are strategies then you know exactly the type of person your dealing with. And so much for gameplay at tech 1 anyway; pretty much every half decent player I know, and AI at medium or hard, will start researching tech 2 as their first action.
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Old 07-27-2006, 12:04 AM   #28
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Arrow

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Originally Posted by Rust_Lord
Who in their right mind is saying this? I would like to know so I can slap some sense into them. There is actually now less strategy since at tech 1 your options are more limited. I guess this is not the same as having "new strategies" but if they think spawning the most number of fighters or rushing to the turrets are strategies then you know exactly the type of person your dealing with. And so much for gameplay at tech 1 anyway; pretty much every half decent player I know, and AI at medium or hard, will start researching tech 2 as their first action.

Lol yea the only "new strategy" I can do is... *pauses*... mass fighter army swarm

/sarcasm off

Anyways yea I had more strategy with my Tartans kicking the stuff out of X-wings hehe

If tie fighters actually had strategic movements while dogfighting or something like that, then just maybe there would be new strategy.
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Old 07-27-2006, 12:44 AM   #29
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Itís easy to see how the new patch would throw the Vette rushers strategy off. I see those guys floundering in 1vs1 quick match like a fish out of water now. It was a fundamental flaw in the design for the game to be shut down at tech level 1, and we apologize for that.

With patch 1.05, weíve given players a chance to stay in the game longer. Heck for the first time in a 1vs1 I had at least 50% of my games this weekend (40) go beyond tech 3. Thatís a huge improvement in my opinion.

Keep in mind these changes came from our hands on observations playing the game online 1vs1 and team (mostly 1vs1). You could say 1.05 balance research easily equated to over 700 games played by the Petro team. These changes werenít made lightly, but were necessary.

The new updates will take time to get used, especially for those used to ďonlyĒ the vette rush strategy. These changes have also been made to the expansion, but in Forces of Corruption we are looking at beefing up fighters, moving Victories and MK IIís too tech 3 as well as adding in some more interesting battlefield items that can be captured and controlled.

Thanks for the feedback I do greatly enjoy playing online with you all.


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Old 07-27-2006, 01:49 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Delphi-PG
These changes have also been made to the expansion, but in Forces of Corruption we are looking at beefing up fighters, moving Victories and MK IIís too tech 3 as well as adding in some more interesting battlefield items that can be captured and controlled.
Awesome. That's what this game needs. It's good now, but if it's going to get better, that's the way. More choices mean more strategy, and that's a good thing. When the corvettes were moved to the next tech, I knew it was because of the new fighters that are coming. The only complaint i have is that the release date isn't sooner.


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Old 07-27-2006, 06:20 AM   #31
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Ok , take Red Alert..something PG knows alot about

.Ok now use your imagination... Red Alert Heavy Tanks which people loved to use. Grab a War Factory , spam some tanks and have some really fun micro with them. Now imagine Noobs complained that they could not tech up to the Tanya and Mammoth Tank because expert players would use Heavy Tanks with skilled micro to kill their refineries and stuff whilst the noob spends all his money on the tech center and power stations. They complain to PG that 1v1 is flawed because they cant get their high tech stuff vs expert players.

PG responds by making the Warfactory only available after you get the tech centre. No more early heavy tank spams that were fun. Only thing you can do now is tech up with the tech centre and once that happens you dont build heavy tanks anyway since you already have mamoth tanks.Those noobs are happy now , because the expert can no longer use the "skillful" units to beat him before he gets his beloved mamoth and tanya. Infantry spams cant really do much in the early game and are pretty boring, so both parties have to make tech centers. Because its a mammoth fest, there isnt really much skill. Those tanks move too slow to be considered "microable" ,and it just a case of bash the armies together.

PG happy that the expert community is apparently "floundering" in the water because every skillful thing they learnt in redalert is out of the window.

This is exactly whats happened to EaW.

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Old 07-27-2006, 09:57 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P5yNerGy|TFL
Red Alert Heavy Tanks which people loved to use. Grab a War Factory , spam some tanks and have some really fun micro with them. Now imagine Noobs complained that they could not tech up to the Tanya and Mammoth Tank because expert players would use Heavy Tanks with skilled micro to kill their refineries and stuff whilst the noob spends all his money on the tech center and power stations. They complain to PG that 1v1 is flawed because they cant get their high tech stuff vs expert players.
But you still had to build your warfactory, essentially making it a rush to the tech. There was more involved than just click and build tanks when the game started.

If EAW was built to be more like RA, some things would change. But it is not, so we have to improve the system we have designed over time.

Balance will come, from all the positive feedback we have received 1.05 was a step in the right direction.


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Old 07-27-2006, 09:37 AM   #33
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This is nothing to do with players 'floundering', Delphi. This is down to the sheer fact that space skirmish is ridiculously imbalanced. The way you replied is like you have read what we said about the game then said 'well it works for me so tough' I'm glad your happy with it but does it not occur to you that so many people are unhappy with it? After all, You haven't had to buy this game.

The way you got your information to make changes is heavily flawed. For a start you say observations influenced you and your team, if this was the case then surely you must have known the imbalances you were putting into the game? Expert vs Expert = Rebellion win EVERYTIME.

I showed you myself how the vette owned the acc and you actually agreed it needed changing but there has been no change, so again I ask you, who have you listened to? Cos in my opinion it wasnt someone who knew what they were talking about.


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Old 07-27-2006, 09:52 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypse|TFL

I showed you myself how the vette owned the acc and you actually agreed it needed changing but there has been no change, so again I ask you, who have you listened to? Cos in my opinion it wasnt someone who knew what they were talking about.
Balance changes will come in increments. Are we done? No. There were other issues that needed addressing first. We expected some negativity, there always is with any patch that changes tactics. But we'll keep tweaking.


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Old 07-27-2006, 11:16 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Delphi-PG
Balance changes will come in increments. Are we done? No. There were other issues that needed addressing first. We expected some negativity, there always is with any patch that changes tactics. But we'll keep tweaking.

I don't understand the logic behind this?

Balance changes will come in increments? - Why release a patch that heavily favours just 1 side, or even why release a patch that isn't finished? (I assume thats what you mean by this)

Delphi, please understand this, I'm not attacking the patch just because it has changed tactics - it has nothing to do with changing tactics. If the game was altered so the vette rush wasn't the best tactic BUT the game was still balanced then I would have welcomed it with open arms, as I expect others would. Even before the patch was released, it was so obvious what was going to happen.

I have already apologised to Sageking over the harshness of this thread (although i'm not sure he got the message) and asked him to forward my apologies but my points still stand.

So again, you MUST have known the patch was heavily imbalanced so why release it if you have plans to make more tweaks?


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Old 07-27-2006, 11:45 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Apocalypse|TFL
I don't understand the logic behind this?

Balance changes will come in increments? - Why release a patch that heavily favours just 1 side, or even why release a patch that isn't finished? (I assume thats what you mean by this)

Delphi, please understand this, I'm not attacking the patch just because it has changed tactics - it has nothing to do with changing tactics. If the game was altered so the vette rush wasn't the best tactic BUT the game was still balanced then I would have welcomed it with open arms, as I expect others would. Even before the patch was released, it was so obvious what was going to happen.

I have already apologised to Sageking over the harshness of this thread (although i'm not sure he got the message) and asked him to forward my apologies but my points still stand.

So again, you MUST have known the patch was heavily imbalanced so why release it if you have plans to make more tweaks?

Feel free to throw out some balance examples. Minus the issue noted above. Also, please factor in costs, fighters spawned, etc. Keep in mind the game won't be balanced to be vanilla (X-wings and Ties do the exact same thing and cost the same).

Thanks!


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Old 07-27-2006, 01:02 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphi-PG
Feel free to throw out some balance examples. Minus the issue noted above. Also, please factor in costs, fighters spawned, etc. Keep in mind the game won't be balanced to be vanilla (X-wings and Ties do the exact same thing and cost the same).

Thanks!
Remove the X-wing "lock S-foils" ability and boom you have a mostly balanced space skirmish.
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Old 07-27-2006, 01:04 PM   #38
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X-Wings and Tie fighters do NOT do the exact same thing, your forgetting the speed difference which is quite an advantage

Tech 1.

X-Wing owns a Tie-Fighter in a straight fight, never seen otherwise. X-Wing with lock S-Foils will get to mines and Turrets long before a Tie-Fighter will get there meaning that by the time a Tie-Fighter does get there it will have to face a turret that will rip it to shreds. Sure you say Tie's build faster but the speed boost for the X-Wing getting to the Turret nullifies this giving the Reb's a huge advantage in this tech.

Tech 2.

Rebs own outright in this tech. Vettes can handle Acclamators nicely (I have shown you this personally) while Neb B's will decimate Tartans. The only Advantage Empire wopuld have had here would have been the 2 bomber squads it holds, now it has just 1 and the vettes will wipe them out before they get chance to do any harm. In a Team game tech 1 will only last 60 seconds anyway as everyone will upgrade as soon as the game starts, especially Empire as the Tie-Fighters are worthless compared to the Rebellion counterpart. Once Tartans have been decimated the Neb B's will turn their attention towards the remaining Acc's and rip them apart bomber free.

Tech 3.

Pretty much a worthless Tech for Empire giving them an Interdictor which is pretty useless (It's missile jamming ability still doesn't work and it's gravwells area of effect too small to be of use). Then you have Darth Vader who is too slow to be of much use unless you have to take care of Solo, which coupled with Fett can be a help admittedly. Rebellion get the Gunship which is devastating in numbers but thankfully not used by the community much plus Antilles, a generally useful ship due to it's speed (Never found out if it's weapon power reducing ability worked though) Also, if I remember correctly the Rebellion also get the lovely Ion Cannon (quote me on that cos I'm not actually sure just thinking about it).

So a quick summary of Tech 3 units - Gunboats in numbers do huge damage cos they bypass shields and are also useful against fighters but not as good as the vettes, they also take a beating too from all ships including the Isd. Antilles is just right to be honest nothing wrong with this unit, fulfills his role perfectly as a hit and run unit. The Interdictor has to be the weakest ship in the game and the most useless and can't hold it's own to anything. Vader has his uses but is too slow for a tech 3 hero flying in a protype ship (just me nit picking there - Vader is fine if you know how to use him) The special weapons (again not sure if they are tech 3 or 4 ) are obviously different but the Ion Cannon is way more damaging than the Seige Cannon (is it the seige?) and unlike the Seige Cannon the Ion Cannon NEVER misses.

Tech 4.

In my opinion Rebs just push the Advantage here, I explain why in a moment but on with the ships. Rebs get the Assault frigate which will lose to a Vic 1v1 cos of the bomber squad but coupled with a vette will own a Vic everytime. This might just be me but the Vic seems to have less of a chance in surviving a fight than the Acc does. The Empire's ONLY advantage here is the Broadside cruiser which totally and without hesitation rips through Space Stations without effort and in only a matter of seconds but as I said before the Chances of you getting to tech 4 and getting enough Broadsides are slim if your in an Expert v Expert game. The Reb's Marauder's are the same but take longer to take down an SS due to the different shape of the Station.

So, Reb's just edge this cos by now they will certainly have the advantage and the better portion of Map control (If the game gets this far, again in an Expert v Expert situation)

Tech 5.

Rebs again dominate this tech. The Rebs get Home One and the Mon Cal cruisers, Home One itself isn't that big a problem to Empire as it's shields can be taken down permanently and it's concentrate abilty is only useful if you have enough ships on your side and near the target. The Mon Cals coupled with a vette or two will wipe out Isd's Everytime and anything else lower than an Isd hasn't much of a chance against this. The Isd is quite weak considering what it is and it's only real saving grace is the tractor beam which is only really usefull against vettes and solo. Piett is a good hero but Ultimately finds himself the target of an Ion cannon rendering him utterly useless. If Piett is around and you haven't got the means to stop him then he can be very dangerous so Empire gets a point here but in the End Rebs still have the advantage.

Then you have the pop cap which is 50/50 .. I can't make my mind up with it. On one hand you could say it's balanced cos Rebs have to buy their fighters while Empire get most for free, but on the other hand, after Tech 2 fighters become obsolete and Rebs get a huge advantage in pop cap when buying vettes/frigs/Mon Cals. Which is the lesser of the two evils, I wonder?

You still didn't answer my question 'Whats the point in releasing a patch if you haven't finished tweaking or like you kinda said, the patch is incomplete'


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Old 07-27-2006, 01:15 PM   #39
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Old 07-27-2006, 01:30 PM   #40
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Woah woah apoc....

Ok firstly Delphi , addressing the issue of Balancing. I have every faith that you guys will fail to balance the game , until you understand what I have to say.

Balancing MUST take into consideration , even totally base itself upon UNIT FUNCTION.
this is important and something ill take into heavy consideration when I beta-test two upcoming games.

Now lets take the imfamous 1.04 . The patch that wiped 80% of the top100 in the space ladder who now play other games.

Corvettes and Tartans. - Now someone who doesnt take into account unit function , one would see balance by clashing the two units together. No doubt 1v1 they are balanced in 1.04. You even told the RsH that, when they complained. However now lets take into account function. Corvs and tarts ARENT meant to fire on each other. THats a secondary function. Their function is to raid mines. they are RAIDERs . A corvs ability to raid a mine , is imbalanced vs a Tartans ability to raid a mine. The result is that the empire player Always eventually ends up with extra tartans because corvs are just too slow stopping the empires economy, or tartans kill the corv before the mine blows.

2 Xwings and 3 Ties - Now someone who doesnt take into account unit function , onw would see by clashing 3 ties and 2 xwings together..no doubt you will find that its balanced. However take unit function into account , and you find that Xwings and Ties dont fight each other..they are actually SEEKERS. They seek mines so that corvs can be dropped to raid them. 2 Seekers with locked coils seeking mines, is imbalanced vs 3 Seekers seeking mines. the 3 seekers can cover more mines.

A sad mistake i did once, was showing you delphi how 3 corvs can kill an acclam. The thing is..If I tried to take on an acclam with 3 corvs , I would have already consdiered myself lost. 3 corvs can be Raiding 3 mines. Whats the point of killing one acclam with 3 corvs if it means the enemy can otherwise rack up 5 credits worth of acclams. And another thing, is when we were arguing over the Unit function of acclams and nebs.and THAT you cannoth balance them By how they just "clash". I think this has made acclams have only one bomber..which is sad , since I considered an acclams primary function as a bomber carrier , rather then a battle frigate. Their secondary fucntion is to repel but not neccesrily be able to kill corvs.

So to summarise..if you guys have anychance of balancing the game ,bar making units totally identicle then you must take into account the unit function and balance that! Not balance just the unit firepower.

Balance the Tartan vs mine with Corv vs mine , The Coverage of a Tie with the coverage of Xwings. Tho this was all 1.03.

Now the fighters function is something abominable i cant even categorise. maybe a build, drag and drop spam function . Its function is spam...sigh.

Anyway..as for the whole issue of 1.03 , if I was a developer id make a setting that allowed for a 1.03 setting. Otherwise Id make fighters worth controlling. just a note for fighters..since everyone says they are crap ..the wrong thing to do is to overpower them , the correct thing to do is make them more controllable so players can make them better themselves. I know you guys were planning to "beef" fighters up in FoC..sigh .just think about it..

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